CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Events, rides etc.

Police Lorry/Bus Event - Festival Square - 11-2 today

(30 posts)
  • Started 11 years ago by Wilmington's Cow
  • Latest reply from Dave

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  1. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Was chatting to Sarge Quentin this morning and the polis are decamping straight from City Chambers to Festival Square where they have permission to park a lorry and a bus in the Square. It's phase 2 of their Streets Ahead Cycle and Drive Safe campaign (there are new billboards about cycling up the left of lorries, and for drivers tellign them not to left hook), and you can sit in the big vehicles to see the blind spots that exist etc.

    Also more free bike marking for people who didn't manage this morning, and freebies a-go-go.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  2. wingpig
    Member

    Bagh. Should have brought another different bike to get it marked, but had to rush this morning. Might go for a sit in a lorry (inside which I shall try and remember to wave a camera about), but need to get to TBS during a lunchtime of restricted width.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  3. crowriver
    Member

    Hmm. Might nip up there with one of the newer bikes if I get a chance...

    Posted 11 years ago #

  4. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Good CCE contingent again while I was there (between roughly 12.20 and 13.20), including meeting tarmacjockey and cyclepc for the first time, hullo chaps!

    Posted 11 years ago #

  5. wingpig
    Member

    Didn't have a go in the bus, but tried the tipper truck: you'd need a flashing light on a four-foot-long pole mounted on your head to stand a chance of being seen when you're next to their front left wheel.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  6. Cycle PC
    Member

    Hi, just home from a really great day. A lot of very positive comments from people attending event at Festival Square. Good to put some faces to names. Good to meet you all in person.

    Paul

    Posted 11 years ago #

  7. chdot
    Admin

    Think it's safe to say there were more CCEers than 'general public'. This is only a fraction -


    CCE @ F Sq

    (Cycle PC is 'hiding' behind anth.)

    Posted 11 years ago #

  8. Puzzle
    Member

    I couldn't get away from work, hope they can do some more.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  9. Dave
    Member

    "Didn't have a go in the bus, but tried the tipper truck: you'd need a flashing light on a four-foot-long pole mounted on your head to stand a chance of being seen when you're next to their front left wheel. "

    Funny, I thought exactly the opposite, how is it possible for anyone to claim there's a blind spot, especially when moving?

    At first I was annoyed there was a photographer mainly sitting in the passenger side of the truck (couldn't they have done their photoshoot before the event, rather than during people's slim lunch hour?) but then I decided it just simulates how much you can see in the mirror despite your passenger sprawling all over the place...

    Will put a post up about it when I have a spare hour or so, maybe a revision break tonight. Got some excellent photos.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  10. wingpig
    Member

    "I thought exactly the opposite"

    A four-foot long pole mounted on the bottom of the feet?
    I was only in it when it was still, observing a cyclist who was pretending to pull up to stop at the front left corner, so cannot pass any opinions on the visibility of moving things from moving trucks.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  11. Dave
    Member

    Don't get me wrong, if you're going to have to wait near a truck, get right in front of it. But how on earth they claim to not be responsible when they have all those mirrors (or alternatively, how they can claim not to be responsible when they haven't fitted basic safety mirrors) is a bit beyond me!

    Posted 11 years ago #

  12. wingpig
    Member

    You'd definitely have to not look on the left-side mirrors for a good few seconds whilst a cyclist scuttled into the blind spot but once there they were not visible. This may have been exacerbated by the left-hand window being open at the time and the stick-on Fresnel thing not being available for use.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  13. spytfyre
    Member

    Yup great to see so many folk out, and meet CCErs and new CCErs I didn't know who they were especially Tarmac_jockey
    How is the beer thread vote getting on?
    It was fun having my bike used as a dead cyclist prop and my helmet worn by the bike leader councillor. Oh yes.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  14. Cycle PC
    Member

    Dave - the blind spots are generally only referred to in stationary / very slow moving vehicles. Feel free to PM me (Edited - PM sent to Dave) and I will try to explain in more detail (don't want to bore everyone here).

    Wingpig - The vehicle used today did have a Fresnel lens fitted to the window, but this was taken off, as most vehicles on the road are not fitted with them and we thought it would be a more realistic demonstration. This was also true with regards the front view mirror (located on the top left of roof, as you look out).

    Posted 11 years ago #

  15. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Here are the mirrors in action


    Drive and Cycle Safe 3 by blackpuddinonnabike, on Flickr

    This shows just how inadequate the 'normal' side mirrors are. See just how much more of the cyclist in is in the bottom mirror (and can still be seen there once he's disappeared from the top mirror).


    Drive and Cycle Safe 4 by blackpuddinonnabike, on Flickr

    Front mirror is excellent. Almost completely eliminates the blindspot in front of the cab. Also caught the photoshoot that a council bod stamped on...

    Posted 11 years ago #

  16. Dave
    Member

    I finally got off my lazy ass to scribble something about this interesting event.

    Hope for the same weather next year?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  17. Claggy Cog
    Member

    Off topic...have they relocated the clock from the other side of Lothian Rd from outside the Usher Hall, and if so, when did that happen?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  18. Claggy Cog
    Member

    http://goo.gl/maps/zIgZ

    I note this image was taken in 2010 and something is happening to the clock, no faces...

    Posted 11 years ago #

  19. Smudge
    Member

    Have to say the mirror fitment on that truck is *way* better than average.

    Next time you see an Army eight wheeler for instance (Leyland Daf Drops for thos who know) have a look at the two main mirrors (probably on slack mountings) and a kerb mirror if your lucky, and that's a left hand drive just to make it more fun :-( You really would shudder to see the blind spots on one of those, esp loaded, you can lose another truck never mind a bicycle!

    Posted 11 years ago #

  20. cb
    Member

    Heading north up Morningside Road this morning towards the Church Hill junction I could see I was catching up on a street cleaning truck sweeping the gutter.

    I started to think about overtaking then decided not to, mainly due to:
    - what other car's were doing
    - my speed slows as the hill steepens
    - I was turning left into Abbotsford Park, so would be delayed for just a few seconds by staying behind.

    Just at the point where I would have been overtaking the truck swung out sharply from the kerb to overtake a waiting taxi.

    I'm sure the (left hand side) driver would have seen me if I had been overtaking, but I was glad I didn't have to put it to the test.

    So: watch out when overtaking these things; by the nature of what they are doing they will pull out very sharply, and they're big vehichle so you may not see what's parked up ahead (I couldn't see the (bright yellow) taxi for example).

    Posted 11 years ago #

  21. Dave
    Member

    "Have to say the mirror fitment on that truck is *way* better than average."

    Do you mean that a lot of trucks have dangerously substandard mirrors? Crikey, that must be a major aggravating factor if the driver runs someone over, what with trucks-driving-over-cyclists being the single biggest road safety issue today?

    Back in reality, there does seem to be a weird idea going round that if the truck driver didn't have decent mirrors that somehow excuses them driving over folk, which is pretty daft. In that recent case in London, a lorry driver who was set up to turn right then changed his mind and turned left over the top of someone didn't even have the legal minimum mirrors, but this was described by the police investigator as a "mitigating factor in the driver's favour"... :(

    Posted 11 years ago #

  22. Smudge
    Member

    Cmon Dave, I'm not excusing anyone, what I am saying is that the truck pictured is pretty much best case and many (most?) Of the lgvv's you encounter out in the "real" world will have poorer mirrors and bigger blind spots.
    The majority of drivers are driving sensibly and trying to be safe, but we should still all be aware that any of us near them on a bicycle can be bl**dy difficult to spot.
    No defence or condemnation here, just suggesting that an awareness of the situation of others can make life safer/easier for all.

    And yes, I'd like all motorists to have a go riding a bike/motorbike before they get a licence, but it's jst not going to happe :-(

    Posted 11 years ago #

  23. steveo
    Member

    Funny you say that Smudge, that was my impression after this. I've now started looking at truck mirrors in a way which is probably not healthy, I suppose in ten years the only trucks with "inadequate" mirrors will be legacy military trucks and tippers.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  24. Smudge
    Member

    "...I've now started looking at truck mirrors in a way which is probably not healthy...", probably very healthy for you when you're riding near them ;-) but I know what you mean :-/

    There will always be vehicles with rubbish visibility and large blind spots imo, many cars are worse now because of large (strong) A pillars etc and bulky rounded bodywork. Large vans are generally worse than small trucks.
    "Armoured" vehicles of all sorts (not just military, bank cash vehicles, Police riot vehicles etc) almost all have *terrible* visibility for the drivers.

    Of course when you drive such a vehicle you have a responsibility to exercise more care, and poor visibility in no way excuses dangerous or stupid driving. However equally I would argue that cyclists, motorcyclists and other drivers have a responsibility themselves to make some allowance for the drivers difficulty, in the same way which I expect drivers of faster motorised vehicles to allow for me as a cyclist being less able to accelerate, less able to maintain a steady course over poor roads etc.

    In short, imho sharing the roads safely requires participation from all users, and an understanding of the other users point of view (both metaphorically and literally) can only help us in being more considerate and safer(for us and others) users of the roads.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  25. chdot
    Admin

    This is more about eyesight than mirrors!

    "

    CTC (@CTC_Cyclists)
    29/06/2012 12:17
    HGV driver pleads guilty after second death in 2 years - Kate Cairns's comments very moving http://beta.ctc.org.uk/news/2012-06-29/killer-hgv-driver-pleads-guilty-to-causing-death-dangerous-driving

    "

    Posted 11 years ago #

  26. Smudge
    Member

    Which is horrible, and it is a disgrace that a so called "professional" driver continued to drive when he clearly should have surrendered his licence, and that before the actual dangerous driving aspect. But to suggest/imply that this is the norm is neither reasonable nor helpful.

    The woefully inadequate investigation and penalty is a seperate problem.

    Going back vaguely ot, as an occasional LGV driver, I find the inference that the majority of LGV's are being driven illegally/recklessly/without care to be as offensive as the suggestion made on other forums that all cyclists routinely ride on the pavement rlj and cycle up the inside of heavies.
    It is simply not true and if we are to find a solution, broad brush attacks on a particular road user group are unhelpful to say the least.

    What we need (imo) is a serious overhaul of the prosecution and sentencing of dangerous or illegal riders/drivers of all vehicles, and a step away from "them and us" arguments/accusations from all sides.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  27. Dave
    Member

    "Cmon Dave, I'm not excusing anyone..."

    Aye, sorry, it reads a bit like I'm criticising you, when really I just got carried away moaning at society as a whole (present company excepted).

    I would say though that drivers who are willing to get into big wagons that aren't fitted (or have been retrofitted) with up-to-date mirrors of at least the minimum standard of that council truck, ultimately should be bearing the blame if they then drive over someone who would have been clearly visible in said mirrors. For instance, it's legal for me to take off my left wing mirror as I have a rear-view in the estate, but I would argue that if I killed someone who was blatantly "there to be seen" in the left wing mirror, I've got nobody else to blame.

    It should be a no-brainer to get these things upgraded really, since the cost of each fatal incident runs to millions.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  28. Smudge
    Member

    No worries, we all get justifiably frustrated and angry sometimes!

    "I would say though that drivers who are willing to get into big wagons that aren't fitted (or have been retrofitted) with up-to-date mirrors of at least the minimum standard of that council truck, ultimately should be bearing the blame if they then drive over someone who would have been clearly visible in said mirrors. For instance, it's legal for me to take off my left wing mirror as I have a rear-view in the estate, but I would argue that if I killed someone who was blatantly "there to be seen" in the left wing mirror, I've got nobody else to blame."

    Hmm substitute Operator for Driver and I might agree, although never having had the extra mirror is not the same as removing one already fitted. The problem is the driver is in no real position to do that. As long as the wagon is legal, the transport managers answer to "I demand you upgrade the mirrors" is likely to be "**** off down the job centre and sign on then, the other drivers don't have a problem with them". The driver is, after all just an employee (exempt owner operators).

    For example at my own work, I could push up the system "the mirrors on truck type X are imo inadequate, they should be upgraded to new wagon standards in the interests of safety". I'd stake a lot of money the answer would involve some or all of the lines;
    "these trucks are legal,
    there is no history of accidents caused by the existing mirror fit,
    there are far worse wagons on the road,
    they are in their last quarter of life so not in line for upgrade" and ultimately, "we have 1000* trucks in the fleet, we are not about to spend £150* upgrading each wagon at a cost of £150,000 plus the cost of down time while the wagons are off the road plus the cost of workshop time for an unproven upgrade which is not legally required".

    Whilst that is undoubtedly cr*p for anyone who may be unfortunate enough to be maimed or killed, that's the logic :-(

    *figures are wild guess based on vague memory! Certainly conservative as the glass on a main truck mirror will cost you over £50 on its own!

    Posted 11 years ago #

  29. splitshift
    Member

    Right I had internally vowed to stay away from lorry forums/posts, but!No matter how many mirrors the lorry has or has not, for goodness sake stay away from our new 15% extra trailers, from the rear there isnt too much difference but from the side the difference is obvious ! Longer !,50 foot long, with a steering rear axle, stay well away, no matter what side, the things are mental ! seems like thaey have a mind of their own !They tail swing like a swinger in a swinger club with a big swing !Problem with mirrors, new or old is that the vehicle, is generally moving( thats inherintly beneficial !) and so are the cyclists.The driver cant always be looking behind when they are travelling forward, and so on. The cyclists position constantly changes also !In and out of blind spts ! just all be carefull !
    Here lies, so and so, He/She was in the right !
    To missquote Oor Wullie, ma road, your road, awebodys road !

    Posted 11 years ago #

  30. Dave
    Member

    In the absence of any interest in legislating on this, I suppose what Edinburgh council could do is levy a safety tax on vehicles of >3.5t entering the city if they don't have the full complement of mirrors fitted.

    Invoiced directly to the registered keeper, it would immediately be uneconomic for businesses to pressure their drivers to use an unsafe vehicle. (Pretty much any amount would make it hard to justify running a substandard wagon if your business operates in and around the city).

    London have done it for emissions, I don't see why it couldn't be done for mirrors.

    Posted 11 years ago #

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