CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Resources

InterCity East Coast franchise consultation now on

(24 posts)
  • Started 12 years ago by Arellcat
  • Latest reply from Stepdoh

  1. Arellcat
    Moderator

    The Department for Transport has recently published, to relatively little fanfare as far as I've seen, its consultation document:

    "...produced to seek views from stakeholders on the minimum requirements the Government should set in the InterCity East Coast franchise specification."

    It started on 26 June 2012 and closes on 18 September 2012. From the press release:

    "Rail passengers who travel between London and Scotland via the North East and Yorkshire are on track to get a host of improvements to their services, including a fleet of brand new trains and better stations."

    "Launching the InterCity East Coast franchise consultation today, Rail Minister Theresa Villiers invited passengers, local councils and anyone with an interest in improved services on the East Coast Main Line to send in their views on what they want from the next franchise."

    Since we 'all' contributed to the recent Rail 2014 consultation this should be dead easy.

    (Spotted via railwayeye.blogspot.co.uk; I had a 'file is damaged' error on the document, but it downloaded fine.)

    Posted 12 years ago #
  2. SRD
    Moderator

    new trains sounds ominous to me....

    Posted 12 years ago #
  3. Arellcat
    Moderator

    New trains is essentially the Intercity Express Programme, which has been championed by the IMechE. Tulyar knows more on the detail than I do, particularly in the reasoning for the design considerations, but I've already been trying to put the cat among the pigeons wave the flag for bike capacity onboard those trains, by way of speaking with various involved personnel.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  4. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Eventually someone will twig that the best replacement for HSTs is probably more HSTs.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  5. crowriver
    Member

    New rolling stock not due to be in place until 2019. New franchise in place January 2014 (assuming bidders) so well wortb pressing the case for cycle carriage on the existing rolling stock...

    Posted 12 years ago #
  6. Darkerside
    Member

    EC trains are probably among the last I'd change, although potentially I've just always got lucky...

    Posted 12 years ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

    "

    CTC (@CTC_Cyclists)

    26/07/2012 09:05
    Good to see space for 8 bikes in two carriages in replacement high speed rolling stock (see 0.54)

    http://youtu.be/DeddoFChmm8

    "

    Posted 12 years ago #
  8. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Hitachi train contract will create 900 jobs in Newton Aycliffe

    More than 900 jobs will be created as part of a £4.5bn contract to build and maintain new inter-city trains, the Department for Transport has said.

    The new Japanese "IEP" trains will be assembled in County Durham.

    The 92 new trains trains will replace the ageing Intercity 125 trains and will run on the East Coast main line in 2018 and Great Western main line in 2017.

    So don't expect any changes any time soon. I believe they are still squabbling about how to power the thing when it's not under the wires i.e. north of Edinburgh. Original plans was for a "hybrid" or "bi-mode" train, fancy speak for hauling around a diesel engine and generator that would only be used for a fraction of the time. I think it began to dawn on the programme that this wasn't the cheapest or most economical way to do things and it may be simpler to just tag a diesel locomotive on the front at Edinburgh and haul them like that. It's not like they ever make it above 90mph running on the way to Aberdeen anyway (and more like 70mph north of Perth)

    Posted 12 years ago #
  9. Tulyar
    Member

    This is disastrous design. It does not work - it may look a bit like the system used on trams in Basel in 1990's but the hooks are in the wrong place and the weight of the bikes does not act to stabilse them. I've video of the tings on Voyager trains and bikes are bashing around swinging from side to side.Even in this illustration you can see that the bike tyres are not in contact with the end wall and the strap system a) has no instructions b) is not 'intuitive to use c) doesn't work and d) is usually lying in a tangled mess on the floor.

    Vertical hanging systems require the user to have some upper body strength, especially if the bikes need to be completely lifted off the floor - and doing this on a train just arriving or leaving a station is not exactly a clever idea.

    That said a semi-vertical aspect, where the main weight of the bike stays on the floor is a fair compromise, and gives an option for carrying a tandem (with front wheel removed)

    In the Cross-country trains the sides of the bike space are scratched and marked by handlebars and the single side is so narrow that some bikes 'bars won't go through the gap. on the other side bikes need to be hung upside down. On Voyagers the noise of bikes going bang-bang-bang... as the train rocks along gets very wearing.

    If I get time I'll stick some of the sequences shot on Voyager trains

    Posted 12 years ago #
  10. Morningsider
    Member

    The new trains are currently only due to replace the old diesel HST rolling stock. These only provide a handfull of services between London and Scotland, most services are provided by the 225 electric rolling stock. It is pretty likely that the 225 stock will be life-extended rather than a new train fleet purchased for the East Coast franchise. This means the current bike (and tandem) carrying capacity on these services should be maintained for the next 20 years or so.

    IEP is a very expensive solution to providing new intercity trains. It would have been better to develop new class 5 carriages and buy the new UK TRAXX locomotives (or similar) - much cheaper and more flexible - although a bit harder on the track than an EMU.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  11. chdot
    Admin

    As Morningsider said -

    From Private Eye

    Posted 12 years ago #
  12. Tulyar
    Member

    Those who follow Railway Eye (an online sort of Private Eye for train geeks may have noted that a bendydpendolino has done a trial run on the East Coast and the general mood of people who run the railways is that IEP is a train which only the DfT and Japanese Embassy want to put on the rails.

    Captain Deltic (aka Alycidon) ahs done some sums and noted thet the 'Avaiilable now - proven design' trains from Alsthom, with their acceleration better than existing 140mph stock

    Railway Eye has captured an amusing hiccough in the press releases from Hitachi and DfT

    Informed sources has done some sums

    I make this four vehicles a week from a single production line and it provides the opportunity to run a reality check on the employment claims for the plant. Hitachi put at his at ‘500+’ although politicians have talked of 700.

    Comparing productivity at other factories I would expect each IEP vehicle to involve between 2,000 and 3,000 man hours. With a 37.5h hour working week that gives a direct workforce of between 215 and 320 for a single shift.

    Add engineering, procurement and administration staff plus some research and development staff to the upper figures and ‘500+’ looks about right. Add a second shift and the ‘at least 700 permanent jobs’ quoted by a DfT spokesman becomes feasible.

    But for how long? The IEP delivery schedules for Greater Western and East Coast could be met by one production line – say 30 months work.

    That won’t justify a 42,700 square metre assembly plant. However, the delivery timescale and quantity of the Crossrail rolling stock fleet would match IEP, filling that second production line.

    So have others

    With ETCS (Cab signalling with rolling block) allowing both tilt and 140mile/h running Alstom’s simulations based on the trial runs suggest that 50min could be knocked off the London-Edinburgh Journey time. Meanwhile, several Intercity West Coast franchise bidders are considering six car ‘Pendoninos’ as Voyager replacement.

    Remember that the bogies of the current IC225 trains were tested on ECML at 150mph running under a Mk3 (HST) coach pulled by HST power cars, and several 140+mph runs have been done with special signalling clearance on this route.

    Of course this is HS2 without the £32bn bill but we shouldn't be say such heinous things!

    Then for the really frugal one only needs to use Chiltern from Birmingham to London to see Mk 3 (HST) coaches converted to automated sliding plug doors, and checked out for at last another 40 years of structural integrity in the bodyshell - and you can fit 140mph bogies too.

    Someone needs to close the toyshop?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

    "Someone needs to close the toyshop?

    Politicians only like BIG new shiny things. So do too many officials.

    Commercial lobbyists know this.

    They don't even need to offer personal bribes/facility trips - just a few 'promised' jobs - as long as there is sufficient 'regional assistance' or 'inward investment' subsidy.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  14. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Whose constituency is the new toy train factory in?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  15. chdot
    Admin

    http://www.philwilsonmp.co.uk - Sedgefield...

    Posted 12 years ago #
  16. cb
    Member

    Can't say I've travelled much on the ECML, but I don't think I'd find the experience too pleasant at a higher speed. There's enough jolting and rattling, and grabbing hold of things to stop them flying off the table as it is.
    Would new rolling stock help this issue, or is the track at fault?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  17. steveo
    Member

    Its funny you mention that when in Germany the other year the trains were so much smoother.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  18. kaputnik
    Moderator

    There's enough jolting and rattling, and grabbing hold of things to stop them flying off the table as it is.

    Yes, the Vic Reeves advert where he is sketching is completely misleading. I've tried to sketch on an East Coast train and it's largely impossible to do anything but rough lines. Certainly not the fine details and well-formed lines that the advert suggests. You have to wait for the train to pull into a platform if you are doing any fine line or ink work.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  19. Min
    Member

    A guy on a train once told me that the track sections are much shorter north of the border which is why there is so much jolting as your train slams from one slightly disjointed track section to the next.

    Don't know exactly how true it is but it is very noticeable that journeys get smoother down south and rougher up north.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  20. Morningsider
    Member

    Min - think the guy was talking rubbish. The vast majority of the track in Scotland (except on some lightly used routes) is continuously welded rail, i.e. there are no joints.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  21. SRD
    Moderator

    Sketching on a train Leo du Feu's website

    Posted 12 years ago #
  22. kaputnik
    Moderator

    i.e. there are no joints.

    You don't get the joints until you go onto the West Highland or Far North lines, etc. where it is old fashioned rail with short sections bolted together. Some of the lines through Waverley Station I noted are also bolted rather than welded. I believe the reason for this is that you cannot get tight enough curves with continuously welded rail as the sections are too long and it would place undue stress on the rails bending them into shape. Old fashioned rail, with short, bolted-together sections doesn't suffer from this.

    Anyone who had a Janet and Alan Ahlberg book when they were younger may remember the poem "Jiggity Can"

    Posted 12 years ago #
  23. PS
    Member

    East Coast is way better than West Coast in my experience. West Coast's pendolinos gave me motion sickness when I tried to do some work on my laptop (at least, they did until the tilting mechanism developed a fault and they had to stop using it). EC is fine for laptop stuff.

    However, it is very noticeable that the EC trains conver the ground between London and Newcastle much faster than between Newcastle and Edinburgh. Presumably the terrain is trickier.

    As for Germany - yep, their ICE trains are great. Much smoother and faster. Time for us to blow £50bn+ on high speed rail. ;o)

    Posted 12 years ago #
  24. Stepdoh
    Member

    @steveo travelled on the ICE train once when I had to fly to Dusseldorf for an event in Cologne. God it was smooth and quiet. Even more so than the TGV.

    Although for sheer break-neck speed, the 320KPH parts of the TGV-Est Europeene line to Strasbourg are incroyable.

    Posted 12 years ago #

RSS feed for this topic

Reply

You must log in to post.


Video embedded using Easy Video Embed plugin