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Leith Walk - next stage (still ongoing and going on…)

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    "All we have here is some cherrypicked video clips from the promoters of a single scheme"

    True, but the point is that somewhere in the UK 'concerned about traffic flow' (and other things) has bothered to think beyond 'traffic lights or roundabouts' and invested in something that seems to work - and has the sort of benefits 'we' want to see on Leith Walk.

    Every town/city/junction is different and a carbon copy design won't be appropriate, but CEC still needs to get beyond the 'traffic flow'/buses are the main design considerations stance.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  2. SRD
    Moderator

    It's also not just about cycling. I'd like a scheme that worked better for everyone to make the space more usable.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  3. PS
    Member

    @SRD +1

    It's back to the approach that Chris Boardman has adopted of late - "What do we want our towns/cities to be like?" The answer tends to be be pleasant places to be, which usually means cars not bombing past inches away at 30mph+. Improved circumstances for cycling is the by-product of an improved environment for everyone.

    Comments on the Poynton video suggest that, outside busy periods, cyclists still need to assert their right to the road, which may be evidence in support of my theory.
    Isn't this always going to be the case, unless you go for full segregation?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  4. Min
    Member

    Yes it is really. I managed to read the post on Exhibition Road though it is rather long and it seems to demonstrate rather nicely why using pedestrians and cyclists as speed bumps just isn't going to work since both tend to shy away from that purpose.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  5. kaputnik
    Moderator

    The more pleasant you make the road (lower speeds, priority taken away from cars), the less eyesore fencing and over-engineered, inconvenient-to-use crossings you need, further improve the look and accessibility of a town or street. It's win all round.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  6. Min
    Member

    Ooh yes, I meant to say chdot makes a very good point. The design may not be perfect but it is way better than it was before and it better reflects the kind of thinking that we should be getting here instead of more of the same but with staggered crossings for peds and a blender for cyclists.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  7. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Dear Stakeholders

    THE LEITH PROGRAMME - email update 6, 8 February 2013.

    Utilities – trial holes
    In order to finalise preparatory work, four further short term trial hole investigations will be carried out in Constitution Street, ahead of utilities work scheduled to start in the week beginning 18 February.

    These investigations will be at the front of numbers 37-41, 85-99, 96-98, 70-174, and are scheduled to commence next week on Tuesday 12 February. The work is predicted to take four days.

    All works are to take place on the footway, with pedestrians diverted onto a temporary walkway on the road surface. Two-way traffic will be maintained at all times during these works. There will be parking and loading restrictions linked to this work.

    Any enquiries can be fed into the City Centre and Leith Neighbourhood on 0131 529 7061,

    "

    Posted 11 years ago #

  8. wingpig
    Member

    More from Alan Dean today, including:

    " Proposed safety measures for cyclists were seen by many as a positive contribution to cycling safety in the area, however there is a significant contrary view that some aspects of the proposals may have an adverse effect and reduce safety."

    Significant. Sufficiently so?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  9. crowriver
    Member

    Consultation - update of 12 February

    The consultation process for the Leith Programme was completed in January and we would like to provide you with an early sense of the findings. We will publish the findings in full in mid March on our web pages which will coincide with a report on the Leith Programme to the Transport and Environment Committee on 19 March (available in the public domain from 13 March).

    The consultation sought views on a set of preliminary plans in order to help inform the development of a final design for the scheme and gave stakeholders the opportunity to provide further feedback. We received:

    482 responses to our survey
    90 people attended our open day
    49 people took part in our focus groups

    Written submissions from the Cockburn Association, Greener leith, Leith Business Association, Lothian and Borders Police, and Sustrans

    Many of the responses received were very thorough and the process has highlighted a number of design concepts and ideas that are being reviewed in the development of a final design. Overall findings are also being used to establish key design principles for a longer term vision for the corridor between Constitution Street, Leith Walk and Picardy Place.

    Below is a summary of some key findings from the consultation process:

    Improvements to road and pavement surfaces are welcomed across all groups.

    Many respondents are keen to see changes that benefit and promote walking, cycling and sustainable forms of transport.

    Proposed changes to pedestrian crossings and islands are viewed positively although there is a call for greater pedestrian priority at some specific junctions.

    There is support for domestic refuse bins to be relocated from pavements to dedicated parking bays and a desire to improve the management of trade waste presentation.

    Proposed safety measures for cyclists were seen by many as a positive contribution to cycling safety in the area, however there is a significant contrary view that some aspects of the proposals may have an adverse effect and reduce safety.

    A number of the respondents feel the preliminary designs don't go far enough with regards to provision for cyclists. These respondents generally want segregated cycleways, particulalry in the uphill direction (towards the city centre).

    There is some call for a 20mph limit for leith Walk as a shopping and residential street.

    There is support for additional greening, reinstatement of public art and historical landmarks.

    There is support for an improved, better managed parking system.

    There is support for improved signage to highlight Leith as a shopping and tourism destination

    http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/leithimprovements

    Posted 11 years ago #

  10. crowriver
    Member

    Do you see what they did there? They turned this:

    Leith Central Community Council
    Leith Harbour and Newhaven Community Council
    Leith Links Community Council
    Greener Leith
    Leith Open Space
    Friends of the Water of Leith Basin
    The Cockburn Association
    Spokes - The Lothians’ Cycle Campaign
    Living Streets Scotland
    Pedal on Parliament
    Cyclists’ Touring Club Scotland

    Into this:

    Greener Leith

    Posted 11 years ago #

  11. SRD
    Moderator

    I've written and asked em to 'correct' it. No reply yet....

    Posted 11 years ago #

  12. chdot
    Admin

    Seem to have edited out any general 'make it better for non-motor users - ie (artificially?) heighten the tribalism/differentiation between 'pedestrians' and 'cyclists'.

    Which either shows a general lack of understanding of 'shared space' potential of LW or a deliberate perpetuation of divide and rule.

    Of course some cyclists encourage that.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  13. Dave
    Member

    I've also popped off an email asking that the list of organisations responding to the consultation be updated to match reality.

    At least a little breathing space before we need to get incensed about whatever sorry excuse for a redesign the planners do come up with.

    </cynic>

    Posted 11 years ago #

  14. crowriver
    Member

    @Dave, don't worry, they've included a catch-all get out clause:

    Overall findings are also being used to establish key design principles for a longer term vision for the corridor between Constitution Street, Leith Walk and Picardy Place.

    So basically, whatever they can't be bothered including / isn't "enough" money for this time around, will be kicked into the long grass included in the "design principles for a longer term vision".

    So that's alright then.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  15. Calum
    Member

    If the revised designs for Leith Walk don't include segregated cycle tracks and I will take it as a loud and clear signal that the council has no intention of meeting either of their cycling mode share targets. The old excuse of "not enough space" simply does not wash - this street is enormous. The excuse of "not enough money" is not good enough either - what is the purpose of the vaunted 6%-and-rising cycling budget if not to build quality infrastructure?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  16. crowriver
    Member

    @CalumCookable, to which the retort will be: "Leith Walk is not in the ATAP".

    Posted 11 years ago #

  17. Dave
    Member

    Thanks Dave, webpage now updated with changes.
    Regards
    Alan

    Weight of numbers? Does look a bit better now :)

    On the general point, based on everything that's been done in the last few years, I'm quite sure that the council won't be able to make a decent job of this latest project.

    There doesn't seem to be the needed leadership (IMHO!) but also the implementation is often staggeringly poor - witness the current roadworks at the bottom of MMW where no provision at all has been made for people to cross to get to schools or the Sick Kids, and people have had to hound councillors to take the relevant officials in hand.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  18. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    "The old excuse of "not enough space" simply does not wash - this street is enormous"

    This.

    Then again, on the Quality Bike Corridor (sorry to bang on about this) there's the section without a bike lane because there was not the space to address the needs of cyclists and drivers - so on the Quality Bike Corridor, when there's not space for both a cycle lane and car parking, they put in.... car parking. On the Quality Bike Corridor (I still find it astounding that one of the stated aims of the Quality Bike Corridor was actually 'increased car parking').

    Posted 11 years ago #

  19. SRD
    Moderator

    What you will be told is that 'local businesses' and 'residents' complain more and more loudly. Until we change that (or the perception of that), we won't change the priorities.

    Officials are so firmly convinced of the overwhelming importance of cars and parking that they will tell you that 'x will never work here'. there is no room for doubt in them about this.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  20. allytibbitt
    Member

    Thought about sending stroppy email too, but it would seem as though other folk have done the honours and changes have been made re: attribution.

    As for the content... well.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  21. Morningsider
    Member

    It's telling that the officals have felt the need to quantify support for the cycling and walking actions, using the terms "many", "a number" and "significant contrary view", but have chosen not to do this for any of the others. I seriously doubt support for all the others was unanimous - is everyone really that exercised about where the bins are located? Were there opposing views as to where the bins should go?

    If I wanted sow doubt about the popularity of cycle improvements then this is one of the ways I would go about it. Language really matters in these circumstances. The QBC is a prime example - I'm sure most non-cyclists on being told the QBC is actually Q would believe it.

    As an aside - I've always admired the fact that the Council has never specified the actual Quality of the QBC. Is it high Q or low Q - you decide. After all - all bike corridors are a certain level of quality.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  22. Dave
    Member

    In some ways I think we "just" need to keep pushing until somewhere a breakthrough is made. To an extend I guess it may be driven by London (as ever) where they are just starting to draw up plans for proper cycle provision.

    Shame that Edinburgh (or Scotland) can't lead the way at all on active travel, notwithstanding the council's welcome budget commitment. Which seems to be being spent tarting up existing infrastructure like MMW or NMW (while you still can't get from the Meadows to canal or Innocent without your life in your hands).

    Posted 11 years ago #

  23. allytibbitt
    Member

    Sent stroppy email.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  24. crowriver
    Member

    Does look a bit better now :)

    Hmm, somehow the Cockburn Association has mysteriously disappeared now?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  25. crowriver
    Member

    @Morningsider, good point.

    Language is never neutral. Witness today's stooshie about the use of the words "separation" versus "independence" in the Scottish constitutional debate...

    Thus in our case, moving bins gets "support" (unqualified?) whereas only "a number of the respondents" want segregated cycle lanes, and merely "some call" for a 20mph speed limit.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  26. Dave
    Member

    Very insightful, I think.

    For instance, regardless of how many comments there were either way, it could hardly be argued that there was "very significant support" for additional cycle infrastructure and improved junction design.

    The council can fairly be expected to provide leadership, and since they have signed up to a charter on the level of cycle use (apart from all the other things, like noise & emissions levels) it's obvious how they should be leading here. Controlling their own message would be an elementary first step, if there were serious plans to improve Leith Drive Walk

    But.. this is Edinburgh.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  27. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Worth doing an FOI on the council to actually get the relevant numbers? Might find out that 100 people wanted improved cycle facilities and 20 people wanted better bins and yet it was written in that particularly underhand way.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  28. Dave
    Member

    For the QBC I think they included responses with their consultation outcome as an appendix, although to be honest it's so long ago that I'm not sure that's true. Certainly I remember reading some hillarious complaints from somewhere.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  29. chdot
    Admin

    "Certainly I remember reading some hillarious complaints from somewhere"

    South Ed 20mph consultation?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  30. crowriver
    Member

    To be fair: We will publish the findings in full in mid March on our web pages which will coincide with a report on the Leith Programme to the Transport and Environment Committee on 19 March (available in the public domain from 13 March).

    http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/leithimprovements

    Posted 11 years ago #

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