"Signalising the rbt would cost £2.5m apparently"
Oh really...
Even on tram scale of pricing...
Oh maybe that's 'to allow for the, increasingly unlikely, prospect of trams on LW'.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Leith Walk - next stage (still ongoing and going on…)
(466 posts)-
Posted 12 years ago #
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We questioned the £2.5m figure and they said one rbt in Edinburgh had cost £3.5m to signalise (though it had encountered unexpected problems). Doubtless there are standard figures for this sort of thing somewhere if anyone is dubious!! Also mentioned there are different types of signalling, e.g. on the rbt itself or the approaches, depending on rbt size, traffic levels, queuing capacity etc.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"had cost £3.5m to signalise"
Probably the one at Milton Road which is more like a motorway junction.
LW/LR is more like a T junction.
Just because all three arms are very wide roads is no reason to keep them that way.
CEC really needs to take a strong line about not taking into account the amount of traffic that wants to use the roads there.
The tram closures have massively altered the amount of available road space in the city centre at various points/time and the world is still going round.
It's unfortunate that CEC didn't take the opportunity to PROMOTE walking and cycling.
George Street was shut for a month for a cafe.
There is no reason why Leith Walk should remain a dual carriageway (yes 'plan for the tram' is complicating things). There is no reason why London Road should be the width it is for motor traffic.
Perhaps it just needs a mini-roundabout with well designed bicycle bypasses.
Whatever solution is reached, there will still need to be lights for pedestrian crossings - unless pedestrians are expected to be left worse off.
OR have a completely unsignalled junction where vehicles have to pass with extreme caution.
There must be some examples 'on the Continent'.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Posted 12 years ago #
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"Whatever solution is reached, there will still need to be lights for pedestrian crossings - unless pedestrians are expected to be left worse off."
Pedestrians are already pushed a fair way back, though not as far from the LW/LR lower roundabout as on the YP-PP-BR/LS/LW upper one. A lot of traffic seems to begrudge slowing and stopping for the first ped crossing along London Road, much as it seems disgruntled to occasionally have to slow down or stop at the pedestrian crossing between the two roundabouts heading down hill from Picardy Place.
Noticed the Holmes statue was back when I went past this evening.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I think the solution is quite simple.
Bollards across the top of Elm Row and the south entrance to Gayfield Square. Thus no complexity from traffic leaving/entering either of those. Traffic lights in sequence on the other three approaches to the roundabout.
If there's a fully segregated two way cycle lane on the west side opposite Elm Row, that can just continue past Gayfield Square and on up to Picardy Place. No need for bicycle specific traffic lights there. If cyclists want to turn onto London Road they can go with the pedestrian phase.
How will that cost 2.5 million quids?
Posted 12 years ago # -
"How will that cost 2.5 million quids?"
Quite!
Posted 12 years ago # -
"
Dear StakeholdersLEITH IMPROVEMENT PROGRAMME - EMAIL UPDATE 1.
The Leith Improvement Programme brings together several strands of work on Constitution St, Leith Walk and Picardy Place including utilities work and road resurfacing. It will also deliver environmental improvements to the streets which are subject to a full public consultation exercise that will start in November 2012.
All updates and information relating to the programme will be published on our web pages http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/leithimprovements however from time to time I will send an email update with any news, and to encourage you to check on the website for more information. This is the first of our email updates and I will send you further ones when key information becomes available. If you don't want to receive them, please let me know by reply.
Utilities Work - updated information (also on the Council website)
Essential work underground to utilities (water and sewage) must be completed along Leith Walk and Constitution Street. In early September 2012, a contract was signed with McNicholas Construction (Holdings) Ltd, to carry out this work.
Last week, a small team of McNicholas staff began preliminary exploratory work lifting man hole covers along both Leith Walk and Constitution St to help scope the utilities work required in more detail. These investigations will mostly be carried out during the day, however some night time checks may be required at busier junctions. The checks should cause no noise disturbance.
Actual start dates for utilities work (and their duration and phasing) are still to be agreed, and will be widely publicised as soon as they are known.It has been agreed that McNicholas will use the site behind Inchkeith House (formerly ex Lothian Regional Transport bus depot) as a depot for plant during the utilities works. Any customer enquiries can be directed to City Centre and Leith Neighbourhood on 529 7061 or citycentreteam@edinburgh.gov.uk
Communication about the Leith Improvement Programme
The release of information on the Leith Improvement Programme will be provided by City Centre and Leith Neighbourhood, including the actual dates of work commencing, the duration of work and any information on changes to the timetable of works and the reasons for any changes.Consultation on environmental improvements
An essential part of the Leith Improvement Programme is gathering people's input into the environmental improvements including improvements for cyclists, improvements to pavements, trade waste bins, providing more greenery and less clutter.The Council's roads design team has begun a preliminary design layout for the streets, to take into account the many and varied needs of the people (pedestrians, cyclists, residents, shoppers, bus users, motorists) businesses and service providers who use the streets. Once this is prepared, it will be used for a full consultation process that will start in early November 2012. In addition to specific focus group research, all individuals will have the opportunity to give their opinions on how well the design meets these various needs through an online survey, an open public event, and on street questionnaires. The consultation period will continue until the end of January 2013 and will help to inform the final layout proposals for the environmental improvements.
We will keep you informed about the opportunity to input into the programme, and hope you will encourage others to share their views.
You can find this information and more on http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/leithimprovements where content will be updated when new information becomes available.
Kind regards
"
Posted 12 years ago # -
"
12 OCTOBER 2012Dear Stakeholders
LEITH IMPROVEMENT PROGRAMME - EMAIL UPDATE 2.
This is the second email update on the Leith Improvement Programme, a programme on Constitution St, Leith Walk and Picardy Place that involves elements of utilities work and road resurfacing; it will also deliver environmental improvements to the streets which are subject to a full public consultation exercise starting in November 2012.New Year start for utilities work
It has been confirmed this week that the essential work required to underground water and sewage utilities on Leith Walk and Constitution Street will begin early in the New Year, and will be complete by early summer 2013.
The decision to begin works in the New Year instead of late 2012 allows the project team to refine plans for the utilities works that will be carried out by McNicholas Construction (Holdings) Ltd. A New Year start date also ensures that the area remains easily accessible for shoppers, pub goers and diners in the busy pre-Christmas trading period which should support a number of local businesses and traders.
Most of the utilities work will take place in Constitution Street between the Foot of the Walk and Bernard Street, and along Leith Walk between McDonald Road and the Foot of the Walk. The work will be planned so as to minimise the disruption to residents, local traders and to the flow of traffic as much as possible. Once more detail on the programming of utilities work programming is available, this will be made available on our web pages http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/leithimprovements and in a further email update.
Update on Consultation on Environmental Improvements
Work is progressing on a preliminary design for a new road and pavement layout with suggested improvements on Constitution Street, Leith Walk and Picardy Place. The preliminary design takes into account the wide range of stakeholder feedback received so far. It strives to balance the needs of all those who use these streets, and to deliver the best improvements for the area as a whole.
Consultation on the preliminary design will start in early November. Focus groups will be held with attendees recruited from within the area, and this will be followed by a wider public survey that will be available in libraries and online from late November, backed up by on-street surveying. Specific approaches will be used to reach less vocal individuals and groups within the wider community.
An open drop in event will be held in McDonald Road Library on Monday 3 December from 10am to 8pm. Council officers will be available to discuss the preliminary design with people and to gather views. All are welcome to attend.
All up to date information on the Leith Improvement Programme is available on our web pages http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/leithimprovements
"
Posted 12 years ago # -
So, to summarise;
1 - despite the tram works being to relocated old utilities and replace them with new ones, the utilities are still b*ggered?
2 - they still haven't come up with a design so further consultations to be held.
3 - "less vocal" individuals and groups have not had enough say, therefore by implication "more vocal" organisations / individuals having too much say?
4 - work will be undertaken in a manner which tries not to inconvenience "traffic flow". So we can expect it to get worse not better for cycling in the short term? Will it be sure not to inconvenience the endemic double parkers of Leith Walk?
Posted 12 years ago # -
"less vocal" individuals and groups have not had enough say - we've heard a lot about cycling and walking therefore it must be due to an organised lobby as normal people would obviously want to drive.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"less vocal" individuals and groups AKA "the silent majority" who presumably worship at the temple of the great divinity Traffic Flow.
Further translation could be as follows:
"This process has been hijacked by the cycling lobby and the Greens. We're not happy about the way this is going so far, so let's try and rig the consultation in order to outflank these busybodies and get what we wanted in the first place."
Posted 12 years ago # -
so, is any one going to call themon this publically?
Posted 12 years ago # -
If you feel strongly about something and make your voice heard at a consultation - along with hundreds of others - you must be silenced!
Posted 12 years ago # -
I'm a business owner in Leith and I'll be heard one way or the other. My current tenants cycle, and none of them have ever owned a car to the best of my knowldge. It is in my interests to ensure that Leith Walk is a pleasant environment for cyclists and pedestrians.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Here's what could be http://www.streetsblog.org/2012/10/12/bike-lanes-mean-business/
Posted 12 years ago # -
didn't Bikeyface just say somehting like that? I think she must know our friend WC too :)
Posted 12 years ago # -
I'm a resident in the Leith Walk ward so I'm going to make damn sure they don't forget about me. Even if it means getting a bit "vocal".
Posted 12 years ago # -
From above link -
"
The effects of these projects don’t go unnoticed. After a few years of living with streets that are safer for biking and walking, business owners have come to embrace the redesigns and appreciate their widespread benefits – calmer motor vehicle traffic, more space for pedestrians, and better visibility for all. To date, over 150 businesses, theaters, galleries, and community organizations in the East Village and Lower East Side have joined New York City’s first Bike Friendly Business District, and more are signing up every day.
"
Posted 12 years ago # -
I wonder if something like this could be used to at least trial proper bike tracks on Leith walk
http://road.cc/content/news/68903-bikway-shortcut-city-bike-lanesPosted 12 years ago # -
CEC has clarified what is meant by that -
"
to make every attempt to hear the views of as wide a group of users of Leith Walk, Constitution Street and Picardy Place as possible in order to get as representative and balanced a picture of what local stakeholders would like to see done. This means making efforts to reach the more 'seldom heard' groups - may be older people (or younger people), those with disabilities, LGBT and minority ethnic groups for example. Best practice in consultation and engagement is what we're striving for and that means going all out to listen to everyone's views, experiences and aspirations for the area. It would be welcomed if this was communicated more widely."
So nothing sinister - no attempt to 'balance' cyclists/greens opinions/voice as suggested by some CCE posters.
Of course it depends what happens after the consultation.
There have already been suggestions that 'there's not enough money to do everything that people might want' and 'segregated cycle lanes would be too expensive' also 'traffic lights instead of the London Road roundabout would cost £2.5m'.
So getting "as representative and balanced a picture of what local stakeholders would like to see done" doesn't guarantee it would happen.
If people believe things are 'not possible' most are less likely to ask for them.
I'm sure there's a consensus on here for 'better facilities for cyclists' - and of course for people who would like to cycle, but wouldn't dare on the current version of Leith Walk.
I would hope that there is very wide agreement that an even bigger priority is to improve the environment generally for pedestrians - even if that meant things weren't 'perfect' for people on bikes.
Ideally this would mean much less motor traffic and certainly lower speeds - 20mph max.
A lot has been said already about parking - and the traders' desires/needs for customer parking (though I suspect most of the LW shops have very local customers) and deliveries. CEC will have to decide how important those are - compared with everything else. In some places more short term parking may be required on side streets - which may not suit the car owning residents there.
Generally I think LW should be as vehicle free as possible.
How about getting the traders to argue for a pedestrian priority zone near their shop.
Imagine sections of LW with 10mph speed limits - just before bus stops of course so Lothian Buses wouldn't object!
I'm just not sure that politicians are willing to think the 'unthinkable' - which works fine in many (other) European cities and (increasingly) in North America.
ThisIsEdinburgh ModelCyclingCity.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"
CycleStreets (@cyclestreets)
18/10/2012 08:00
Photo of the day: cycle.st/p26245 Councillors vote for a new cycle lane in room packed with "anti-" residents"
I wonder if the opposite could happen in Edinburgh!Posted 12 years ago # -
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British Cycling (@BritishCycling)
18/10/2012 10:14
#GoDutchConf - Dutch Ambassador "the key is integration of walking and cycling into all infrastructure; we've been doing it for 40 years""
Posted 12 years ago # -
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Bikeminded (@BikemindedRBKC)18/10/2012 10:36
Dutch protesters focused on better facilities for kids- not only for cyclists = facilities were designed for most vulnerable #GoDutchConf"
Posted 12 years ago # -
Unfortunately, the UK approach to that is the 'dual network' - the 'Quality Bike Corridor' for adult commuters on the road, and the 'Family network' via parks and green spaces - neither quite up to scratch for all cyclists to use...
Posted 12 years ago # -
"
Mark (@AsEasyAsRiding) tweeted at 1:49pm - 18 Oct 12:Dutch roundabout layout being explained. #GoDutchConf http://t.co/MiocNVCl (https://twitter.com/AsEasyAsRiding/status/258912670923763712)
"
Posted 12 years ago # -
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A drop-in exhibition will be held in McDonald Road Library on Mon 3 Dec, 10am-8pm. Council officers will be there to discuss the proposed design and get views. Put it in your diary
"Posted 12 years ago # -
"
Bike lanes, like this one on Ninth Avenue, have drawn criticism, but they have helped nearby merchants prosper, according to a new city report."
Posted 12 years ago # -
Two local politicians are due to meet two Ministers soon (two meetings).
It is likely that they will mention LW and try to get more money for its 'makeover'.
The current Government is adamant that Edinburgh won't get 'any more money for trams', but there's a lot more to LW than work having to be done to remedy the work done 'for' the trams (which may or may not arrive one day).
Leith Walk is about showing how priorities in Scottish cities could be different - with an emphasis on people not motor vehicles. This mean considering pedestrians (and people on bikes) more.
Any traders (and politicians) 'worried about parking' might like to look at this -
http://bikeyface.com/2012/11/02/not-cyclists
The fact that all four politicians are in the same party (SNP) should make things easier, but there are still big gaps between people wanting more 'active travel' and considerations of 'streets for people' and those who imagine a 'bigger picture' in which car users are voters.
The SNP Government has mostly removed "ring fencing" which forced local authorities to spend money on centrally directed priorities. This is largely a good thing but means that the SG can say 'we've given money to councils, it's up to them how they send it'.
Of course this is more difficult when money is tight and the SNP seems keener on spending money on BIG projects - rather than (for instance) providing enough to meet its own cycling targets. Which of course is back to the issue that most spending would be in local areas by local councils for a national target.
Perhaps Leith Walk can be a model for co-operation and funding that will benefit people and help reach some of the various 'Healthier/Greener/etc. Scotland' targets.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"Perhaps Leith Walk can be a model for co-operation and funding that will benefit people and help reach some of the various 'Healthier/Greener/etc. Scotland' targets."
That's exactly it. Leith Walk is a real opportunity to be seized:
- A key thoroughfare for A to B travel
- A street in need of an economic boost; ie to make it a destination for people rather than just a corridor for cars
- Wide enough to accommodate segregation for all sorts of vehicles
- Long enough to demonstrate the benefits for all road users of giving bikes their own space
- A street of city-wide and nation-wide prominence that can make a statement about the city's aim to make this a liveable city on a human scalePosted 12 years ago #
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