@anth It looks like it has a semicircular zebra crossing around the top. We have sort-of-roundabouts with zebra crossings across the exits here now that some of the George Street zebra crossings have been restored.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Leith Walk - next stage (still ongoing and going on…)
(466 posts)-
Posted 12 years ago #
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I'm not sure how I feel about the plans for the two roundabouts.
Are we to assume that the segregated cycle lane has priority over vehicles turning into/out of Union Street/Gayfield Square? That seems okay - very similar to what the main roads are like heading into Bruges. But in Bruges that sort of cycle lane is continuous along the full length of these roads, so drivers are used to it and know to give cyclists priority. There must be a real risk that if this is the only section of road with these priorities in Edinburgh then Joe Driver won't be aware of this.
There also looks to be a nasty invited bus-on-cyclist squeeze at the end of the segregated cycle lane northbound at Gayfield Square as a result of the segregated lane petering out there. Perhaps less so, but still a risk at Leith Street southbound.
Can't say the red lines in the roundabouts themselves are going to make anyone but the most confident cyclist any happier about approaching these junctions...
Posted 12 years ago # -
"
“It is now critical to make our roads safer and help everyone to feel confident on a bike or on foot. We need government and local authorities to implement these recommendations immediately to improve people's lives now and save the NHS billions in the long run.”"
http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9010#post-92491
Posted 12 years ago # -
Planning expert warns Leith Walk cycling lanes a ‘cyclist blender’
Here's Dr Caroline Brown's blog post referred to in the article.
Posted 12 years ago # -
The new-style arrangement would see cyclists forced to battle for space with motorists
parachuting in behind enemy lines, again ?
that bbc programme hasn't even been shown yet !
Posted 12 years ago # -
Interesting article.
The £5.5m is for all of LW not just the roundabouts.
Sometimes useful the way Scotsman site has 'related articles' -
"
Lesley Hinds relishing ‘poisoned challice’ of role as transport chief
Published: 08 August 2012Posted 12 years ago # -
It is a bit hard to say whether those cycle lanes round the roundabouts are an improvement or not. I think on the whole probably not. They are slightly better than the right round the edge in the kill zone lanes that you usually get on roundabouts but I think they encourage cyclists to "get out of the way" and allow motorists to whizz round on either side of the cyclist, cutting into the lane if/when they are going too fast not to.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"I think on the whole probably not."
Agree.
"They are slightly better than the right round the edge"
Yes - Council is aware that round the edge (like the ones that used to be at the bottom of Broughton Street) are not a good idea.
CEC - in my view - is not being bold enough about restricting traffic. Queen Street/York Place currently shut - people are coping.
The number of buses is part of the problem - but the answer is bus lanes which bikes can use and will be MUCH better if/when the surface is smooth(er) PLUS another lane for all the other traffic PLUS the parking.
So pretty much status quo in spite of cycling targets and increasing numbers of cities worldwide that understand the value of encouraging pedestrians and cycle use.
Of course there can be no 20mph until the South Central pilot has been evaluated.
AND of course -
"
The preliminary design has been drawn up by the project team as an illustration of what is achievable given the funds currently available. Obviously if money were no object, there would be scope to do much more."
Only this week I heard a councillor say that the City Centre (specifically George Street and Queen Street) were more important.
Actually I disagree - for a lot of reasons.
This is a fabulous opportunity for Edinburgh to do something a bit adventurous, away from the traditional tourist hotspots.
So no chance then.
Posted 12 years ago # -
My approach on roundabouts has always been to claim the lane. At Picardy Place and London Road this discourages motorists from putting the squeeze on you, and you tend only to be "in their way" on the roundabout, after which you're into the greenway pretty quickly...* That way you're in the flow of traffic and the main thing you need to worry about is getting onto the roundabout when a gap appears.
However, I can see how that would not be top of the list of things to do for some. I guess the redlines on the road are there as a haven for cyclists, but I agree with Min - they run the risk of stranding the less confident cyclist in a sea of buses and cars. Either that, or of motorists not respecting them and ploughing straight on over the cyclist's line. In fact, the latter is most likely: can you imagine drivers even noticing the red chips on the road when they're busy concentrating on spotting a gap in traffic to allow them onto the roudnabout, let alone what they'll see at night, in the rain etc.?
*although less if you are heading from the London Road to Broughton Street. That rise in front of the Playhouse can be pretty draining even on the road bike (especially after 70 miles in East Lothian). I guess the segregated lane will help there, as long as they have planned a sensible way of getting across the PP roundabout to Broughton St. Oh look. They haven't.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Perhaps a great fat bus lane in the middle lane, moving off to the left after the exit (for turning right)? It would be where the broken red bits are now but unbroken. So for example, going from York Place to Leith Street, you would be in what is now the middle lane for drivers going down Leith Walk and it would continue round to the bus lane in Leith Street. Of course you still have to get into that middle lane..
Green paint and solid white lines would make it obvious. And obviously drivers could cross them to go over the roundabout but not drive round in them. This would be at Picardy Place. Would it fit at London Road too?
Posted 12 years ago # -
Actually, something they could do really easily in Leith Street (don't know if they are going up that far) would be to get rid of the left filter at Calton Road and have that left hand lane for road users going left AND down Calton Road. The middle lane would be a bus lane for continuing up Leith St. That spot is hideous for being left hooked. It is far more dangerous than even the roundabout IMO.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Given that they could easily have made the whole of Leith Walk, including the Picardy Place and London Road junctions, so easy to cycle that a class full of primary school kids could have gone the entire length of it in perfect safety without it even occurring to them to feel scared, I'd say that the current plans are a disgrace and a tragedy.
Posted 12 years ago # -
@cc A very good point, very well made.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I think we should not give up on this yet.
This is a street that is unusually wide, is in need of substantial renewal, has large amounts of money earmarked for it already, and has a clearly stated demand from the local community for segregated bike paths.
If we cant make it happen here, then where the hell can it happen?
I think need to get together a group (Pedal on Parliament, Spokes, Greener Leith, CCE, Splashback
Leith Open Spaces etc)that can coordinate action on Leith Walk right now, ASAP.I think, we need to:
1. Ensure that the councils heavily stage-managed consultation sends an absolutely clear message that the current plans are totally unacceptable (posters on LW/leaflet businesses?)
2. Demonstrate very visible/noisy support for proper proposals on the ground (Flash Ride/mini POP?)
3. Apply political pressure judiciously to the stubbornly Neanderthal members of the council who are refusing to do what is necessary (i.e. at the committee meeting in March they need to find it politically desirable to shelve the current plans, and start again).
I cant help thinking that so far we cyclists are just being too damn nice here.
https://departmentfortransport.wordpress.com/2012/11/29/breaking-news-nothing-has-changed/
Sometimes being nice/writing letters/filling in surveys etc just isn't enough.
You've probably all seen the 'How the Dutch got their Cycle Paths' video, but watching it really reminded me that at the end of the day the tradition of protest in the Netherlands is what got things done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XuBdf9jYj7o
Standing in the street with a load of other people with signs that say things like 'Stop the Child Murder' etc might seem confrontational, and yes some people were no doubt angry, disapproving, turned off etc but it worked.
I think we really need to start pushing much harder here.
We (cyclists/pedestrians) have the arguments, safety, liveability, sustainability etc.
There's no equivalence between these and the interests of (lazy/selfish) motorists (and/or lazy timid politicians).
Lets not be too afraid of being loud, and getting in the way of business as usual eh?
Now, who's up for meeting up and getting some of this done?
Posted 12 years ago # -
Yes. Well said.
Posted 12 years ago # -
@PS yeah, I was wondering about exiting to Queen ST/ Broughton rd and wondering if I missed something.
Posted 12 years ago # -
It certainly does not look like they will do anything brave or progressive here. and, as cc and others have said - this is the biggest and widest of streets, plus one of th wort to cycle. very depressing.
Leith walk could be such a fabulous place, and deserves better than being full of fast moving traffic.
Did anyone else notice the comment from the greener leith rep which seemed to imply that they were happy with the proposed changes? was it badly edited or did I misread it. if it is correct, then I am disappointed.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I agree with Angus.
I assume some of the groups mentioned are talking to each other.
Bit of forward planning worthwhile.
Important to send in comments into the consultation (anyone can) .
These will help the officials to decide what can be put forward for the council(lors) to approve - or not.
IF this process is to meaningful, I think the 'final' proposals should be available much more than a week before the committee meeting.
At that point groups and individuals will have to decide whether they support the proposals, still want some 'tweaks' - or demand a complete rethink.
Clearly the more people and groups can have a similar 'vision' the better.
At this stage it seems that the council proposals are based on not changing too much and not 'having' enough money.
Perhaps the council is hoping that any opposition will be small - and fragmented.
'We' know that some cycle people want completely segregated cycle routes and others are less bothered.
It's assumed that most traders want lots of parking - for customers and deliveries. But do they - and do they need as much, in the same places for most parts of the day?
It remains to be seen how much things will improve for pedestrians - who really are more important than cyclists (and car users). There's probably too much emphasis on the needs of buses/passengers.
There's much more to LW than a transit route - the council needs to understand this (as perhaps do some cycle people).
An important part of that is reducing traffic speeds. If the council can't wait for the day that a 20mph is 'possible', it needs to do much more to design-out speed.
Of course there's no money, or political will. I wonder what local people/business customers really want - and will they be telling anyone?
Posted 12 years ago # -
a meeting in the tourmalet seems called for? or out of the blue?
Posted 12 years ago # -
Totally agree with Angus.
"If we cant make it happen here, then where the hell can it happen?"
Exactly.
It heartens me to see the good comments here. Let's keep up the pressure
Posted 12 years ago # -
"It heartens me to see the good comments here. Let's keep up the pressure"
Calling all north of Princess Street people...
Posted 12 years ago # -
Good idea Angus, and strong comments from all. Whilst the Leith Walk local angle is important, it shouldn't be any different to a campaign for Gorgie Road, Morningside Road , the Royal Mile or Raeburn Place. We would be lobbying for all. But Leith Walk at least is the focal point for now.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"Whilst the Leith Walk local angle is important"
I wasn't suggesting that 'only local people should be involved', more that there are already local groups/people doing things - so work with them where practicable.
I'm also not saying that cycling and 'transport' aren't important, I just think it's important to bring in as many aspects/people as possible.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I'm still slightly confounded by the fact that officials admitted this week that they hadn't bothered costing up their first stab at a design - the one which had a protected lane on the uphill side of the street from Pilrig Street.
Even though officials said this lane was technically feasible, it was dismissed as "unrealistic," at this weeks meeting.
Therefore it would appear no-one actually knows how much extra it would cost to install protected cycle lanes.
Not quite sure how this sits with the council motion at the Finance and Resource Committee a while back:
http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/meetings/meeting/2742/finance_and_resources_committee
"The Director of Services for Communities to ensure that the design team assesses a full range of options to give increased priority for cyclists, including dedicated and mixed use lanes, to complement the proposals of the Active Travel Plan."
It would appear that the design team have only fully assessed only one option. The one that's out for consultation.
There's a slim chance that this will shed some light on things:
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/draft_leith_walk_plans#outgoing-239479
But not due back until New Year.
PS @SRD Tracey says her quote was taken out of context in that article.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"
Not quite sure how this sits with the council motion at the Finance and Resource Committee a while back:"
Yes - that quote is quite prominent on the Leith Walk project part of the CEC website, so I hope councillors will be asking why it appears to have been ignored.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I would be totally up for a protest on this. I am not able to help organise but would go along and wave banners.
I am unsure of what to write in the consultation questionnaire thingy in the meantime. Demand decent stuff or accept that we are only going to get a few stale crumbs and try and suggest less deadly alternatives?
Posted 12 years ago # -
I meant to save a copy of my submissions on the survey-thing for sending in separately through a channel where I could ask for a reply.
"I am unsure of what to write in the consultation questionnaire thingy in the meantime. Demand decent stuff or accept that we are only going to get a few stale crumbs and try and suggest less deadly alternatives?"
I don't know whether it's best to just say "awful - because - instead" or to leave off the "instead" in case lots of other people are doing so with a different "instead" each time, which might detract from the effect of all the awfuls...
Posted 12 years ago # -
I'd love to see segregated cycle paths on ALL major routes (London Road, Costorphine Road, Gorgie Road etc etc) but installing them is costly and time consuming. So we should make sure they ARE added when work is being done. We missed the chance with Princes Street. We should make sure we don't miss the chance with Leith Walk.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I fear Leith Walk.
But I'd like the pigeons back.Posted 12 years ago # -
Following on from various discussions (online and at PY) and I'm going to start a mailing list for discussion/planning. Please PM me if you would like to be added. It may take me a little while to sort the details, but I'll post back when it is sorted.
Posted 12 years ago #
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