Just back in the building after a 5.15pm fire drill as I was getting ready to leave. Grrr! Will have missed all the fun, so just heading home >:(
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Leith Walk - next stage (still ongoing and going on…)
(466 posts)-
Posted 11 years ago #
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The best solution is also the best one for cyclists - a t-junction."
Absolutely agree.
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Didn't seem worth crying about dedicated cycle lanes or a total re-partitioning of street space when their budget is a drop in the ocean, really.
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'Fraid so.
I'm just back from the consultation. One thing that emerged was that a budget was set, then more things were added - without more money.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Breaking news - the flash ride was a success! No one was killed, injured or arrested.
In other news, the flash ride was a disaster! There were only three of us, all of whom would have responded to the consultation anyway.
Oh, and there is a serious risk of dooring city-bound. At least three doors were opened into our path (need to check the video for certain on that, could have been four), and probably another three or four occupants that were considerate enough to wait...
Robert
[Who's perfectly happy that the good news/bad news is that way round!]Posted 11 years ago # -
Apologies - there would have been four if I hadn't felt unwell this afternoon! I salute your bravery for going even one way on Leith Walk, frankly.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I came home Leith Walk / Picard Place / Leith Street, which re-affirmed that my comments had not been harsh or severe, but perfectly fair and balanced given the current setup.
I counted, ahem, 7 CCE-ers in the consultation (+2 family members!) around same time as me. Good effort folks!
The A4 sheet had half a page for comments. I made a PTO and ran over the full side of the sheet on the flipside.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Apparently it would cost three quarters of one million pounds to properly redesign the Pilrig Street junction in line with modern thinks.
Useful to see them all out and printed but didn't have time to scribble down much, so will email them after more consideration.Posted 11 years ago # -
I offered up the same quantity of feedback as kaputnik. There's plenty more where that came from, though.
Were there any road design guys there? All the Council guys I spoke to professed to not knowing the detail of the proposed road layout at PP/LRd. They also made enough comments along the lines of "That particular aspect will need to be looked at again" to suggest that things are still up for grabs there. However, it's pretty clear that they think there isn't the money to do anything radical on LW. My concern would be that failure to act now will just lead to resistance to do anything new in future once LW is "fixed".
Loads of cyclists there. And I think the Council guys could sense even those of us who were non-fluoro... Possibly something to do with us beginning the conversation with questions like "What's supposed to happen at the end of the segregated cyclelane?"
Posted 11 years ago # -
I didmy best innocent lookwhen I asked 'what's that bit there'' while pointing to the bits reserved for hypothetical trams. Unfortunately, I picked the cycling guy, which was a mistake, as he just said 'uhhhh' and called over one of his colleagues. Honestly I did feel a bit sorry for them. they are trying. But I don't get the 'this is the money and what we propose to do with it'. why not present options and let people vote like they did in the Harrison Park consultation?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Couldn't get out of work in time, Roibeard; it was 5.50 before enough kids were collected that I could leave.
Those two roundabouts were almost the whole story, in my Humbledore. The cost of making them signalised junctions would chew up almost the entire budget and there isn't the political will to slow traffic down that much.
With a resurfacing and proper parking enforcement of the bus lanes, I'd be fairly happy with the rest of Leith Walk, but for the blender at the top.
There doesn't seem to be a way of making roundabouts anything but hairy for cyclists. The closest I can think of is traffic signals that periodically halt motor vehicles but are permanently green for cyclists. That way the messenger types can hurtle round them as now, and the less confident cyclists wait for the lights. It's a bodge and I can see problems with it already, so I didn't write it down.
Posted 11 years ago # -
why not present options and let people vote like they did in the Harrison Park consultation?
In my experience, when it relates to infrastructure projects so much design work is undertaken and contracts costed prior to public scrutiny that to subsequently deviate from the plans in any meaningful way is a non-starter. Essentially, 'consultation' actually means showing the public what is planned and what will happen, with the gathering of constructive criticism a simple pacifier.
There doesn't seem to be a way of making roundabouts anything but hairy for cyclists.
In Edinburgh, or just in general? A properly cyclist friendly roundabout doesn't have any motor vehicles on it, and as built probably isn't a roundabout at all unless the numbers supposedly require it, and in such densities human nature takes over and we all ebb and flow and our routes intermingle. I like the notion of an advance green light for cyclists, but like ASL usage, it'd only be really useful if you can actually get to the front. Our roads always seem too narrow to be able to filter safely.
I'm dismayed that CEC is all set to leave Leith
WalkDrive much as it ever was. It's a monumentally wasted opportunity. The wherewithal to spend lots of money on the street probably won't come round again for two decades at least, and that will set Edinburgh and Leith back two more decades towards achieving what the Dutch have right now.Posted 11 years ago # -
"Were there any road design guys there?"
Was still one at 5.30.
Different people at different at different times through the day. People from local Team and also Economic Development. Key Cycling/ATAP person arrived as I left.
"However, it's pretty clear that they think there isn't the money to do anything radical on LW."
Yep.
I'm sure that if there was a 'blank cheque' all sorts of new ideas would come forward.
The problems remain -
Officials don't really want to propose things that politicians would reject (though it's unclear how much there are things that officials would like to see. I did have a conversation about doing away with some of the parking - it is being thought about, though I'm not at all clear if it has been asked for.
There seems to be no real political will to do anything that would actively restrict traffic/flow.
There seems to be no political will to do much to favour pedestrians and cyclists over motor traffic. To some extent that includes the buses. These are seen as transit objects that must be allowed free passage - not so much consideration for the cargo which may want to get on and off and cross the road to get to/from bus stops.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Arrrgh!! I completely forgot about the consultation :(
Posted 11 years ago # -
Malcolm Chisholm was there (though I didn't overhear any concerns -
On the way out I noticed this -
Posted 11 years ago # -
The council guys who were there at same time as me were getting largely sidelined by one man who was very upset about the fact that the proposals which were up made no commitments to the location and details of bins and trees. I felt sorry for both the man who was complaining (as the officials couldn't offer any help) and the officials being cornered by him, as they couldn't help!
I did enjoy overhearing the one official try to explain - badly - to a couple of guys why you "had" to have a wide central reservation (to make space for centre-of-the-road traffic signals), to which his audience kept pointing out other similar roads which manage fine without. They kind of got him to talk himself into a corner that you didn't actually need such a wide central reservation at all, but that's what they had put on the plans, so it had to be there. He also said that you couldn't simply use the space in the middle as raodspace it would create an alinear road. When he tried to explain that it would create a series of right-angled turns, one of his audience was good enough to remind him that it's exactly what the council do when creating cycling "facilities"!
Posted 11 years ago # -
In my experience, when it relates to infrastructure projects so much design work is undertaken and contracts costed prior to public scrutiny that to subsequently deviate from the plans in any meaningful way is a non-starter. Essentially, 'consultation' actually means showing the public what is planned and what will happen, with the gathering of constructive criticism a simple pacifier.
Yes, I got that sense too. I found the whole experience depressing: such a timid and blinkered 'vision' for what could be a much better. more pleasant boulevard.
Ten more years of, as you say, Leith Drive. Ten more years of heavy traffic racing up and down with scant consideration for, never mind protection of vulnerable road users.
Oh well. The veneer of democratic accountability has to be preserved, I suppose. Then everyone can just get on and do what they planned in the first place...
Posted 11 years ago # -
"
Cycling Edinburgh (@CyclingEdin)
03/12/2012 21:25
What some CCE members think of today's consultation about #Leith Walk http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7945&page=8&replies=251#post-93185 #ActiveTravel #Edinburgh @LAHinds @AndrewDBurns"
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Cllr. Andrew D Burns (@AndrewDBurns)
04/12/2012 07:40
@CyclingEdin @LAHinds OK - many thanks for the link .. hope everyone is submitting formal comments: http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/20056/city_centre_and_leith_neighbourhood/1788/leith_improvement_programme_2012-2014/3 - up till 13th Jan."
Posted 11 years ago # -
Well, that was depressing. One of the folk there explained that it's very dangerous for bikes to pass round the edge of roundabouts. Cars entering have to strain round to see them. To avoid this, on the Leith Walk / London Road roundabout, they'll put cycle lanes round the outside edge of the roundabout, BUT they'll paint on hatching, so cars are "forced" to stay back from entering the roundabout. I pointed out that cars would just sit on the hatching, and bikes would then be in the exact danger zone he'd described. He looked mystified at the idea that someone would creep forward to get nearer to the roundabout...
In my experience, in a car, you want to be as near as you can to the roundabout, so you can nip out when there's a gap...Posted 11 years ago # -
@bdellar I made that same point in one of the (many) bullets I wrote on the front of my comments form, before turning the paper over and writing an essay on the back.
Posted 11 years ago # -
@Uberuce There doesn't seem to be a way of making roundabouts anything but hairy for cyclists.
At the Cycling Scotland conference, I was astonished to hear the Dutch delegation say that roundabouts are safer than traffic lights - my response "not the way we do it here!". Whilst we're ripping out roundabouts to replace then with "signalised junctions", the Dutch are doing the reverse!
I believe them when they say that roundabouts are safer - it's just that we were visited by time-travellers from 30 years hence.
Clarke's Third Law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Robert
Posted 11 years ago # -
Do the Dutch do anything different for roundabouts or is it all driver expectations?
Posted 11 years ago # -
stevo, see the blog linked to by Arellcat on page 8. They seem to have completely separate lane for bicycles, away from the car part of the roundabout. I've seen a video of one where the cars have to give way to the bikes where the bike lanes cross the car lanes. You can imagine the confusion that would cause here! (I wonder if foreigners driving in Holland have problems with the bike infrastructure, if they're not used to it?)
Posted 11 years ago # -
Are their roundabouts signalised? The plans for the Dave Brennan/HGV near-miss roundabout certainly were.
Posted 11 years ago # -
stevo, see the blog linked to by Arellcat on page 8.
Ah, so continuing the segregated infrastructure, sensible. I'm not all that fussed for segregation in general but I'd jump up and down for decent quality segregated routes at some roundabouts, Loanhead, the Calder Road (all of them), Leith walk (obviously), the list is quite extensive. I usually use a side street as defacto segregation at Stenhouse Cross on the way into town.
Not sure I'd trust drivers at the little give ways on the exits though, although drivers always (mostly) seem to managed to stop for the zebra crossings at Stenhouse Cross and George Street so maybe they'd (we'd) adapt.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I went home via St Mark's path, Chancelot path, ferry Road etc to Russell Road rather than chance the Leith walk roundabouts uphill. Downhill - shepherded by an anxious Roibeard - was bad enough for me!
Posted 11 years ago # -
I wonder if foreigners driving in Holland have problems with the bike infrastructure, if they're not used to it?
I found that the road markings associated with segregated bike infrastructure are reasonably intuitive - for example, coming out of a side street there is an obvious white stop line before the bike lane, then the bike lane markings, then the main road. It looks unusual so you approach with caution. If you didn't, then you'd have no one to blame but yourself and your own inattention.
Then again, maybe as someone who cycles in the UK I was just awestruck and slowed to a halt because I could not believe my eyes.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I wonder if foreigners driving in Holland have problems with the bike infrastructure, if they're not used to it?
This story sprang to mind (Denmark, rather than The Netherlands):
http://www.copenhagenize.com/2010/03/amex-demands-money-danish-cyclist.html
Posted 11 years ago # -
Regarding Dutch roundabouts - there are two elements to them: 1 the separated track around the outside for bikes (which may or may not have priority over traffic) and 2. the 'continental geometry' which means tighter corners so cars can't just whoosh through them, but have to slow right down to get on and off. You need both to make them safe for cyclists; the tighter geometry makes them safer for cars and pedestrians but not as much for cyclists.
Clearly it would be a brave traffic engineer that put the first segregated track around a British roundabout BUT if combined with a tight geometry and plenty of warning signs I can't see how it would be any less dangerous than either an existing UK roundabout or those daft ones with the bike lanes painted all the way around the outside but on the roadway, which are the most dangerous kind of all.
Posted 11 years ago # -
A point Steveo highlighted earlier, its all about driver expectation. At Zebra crossings drivers know peds have right of way and running someone down would most likely result in the driver being blamed. Equally in the Netherlands cyclist have priority over motor vehicles in most places. So drivers always let cyclist have road space as any incident would equally result in them being judged by others at being at blame. In the UK at present drivers know that in any incident the authorities will treat everyone equally. oportioning blame, only after all facts are gained. In a SMIDSY and authorities are involved, drivers are usualy in shock that they hit or caused someone to hit them. Its just a shame that authorities can not or chose not to prosecute the person at fault. So although the driver may be slightly more cautious for a while, other pick up on the 'I didn't see you' excuse and them use it, knowing authorities are likely to just take no further action, as they know someone who have experienced the same before.
The hardest battle we have is changing the public's perseption of blame in incidents. Unless drivers start to treat cyclist and peds who are on the road, like peds on a Zebra Crossing, seperate facilities, asls and paint will only go so far.
Posted 11 years ago # -
That's largely the conclusion I've been coming to, DaveC. If Edinburgh—indeed, the UK—'went Dutch' with its cycle and pedestrian infrastructure, I don't think it would necessarily work as well, at least for a while. Not because of politics, because 'going Dutch' would be as a result of a sea change in political will and would see rapid development of new style infrastructure, but because that sea change was not gradual, and therefore would not have been matched by a gradual culture change.
Bish bosh, new cycle underpasses, new wide cycle lanes, new priority measures, new roundabouts and bridges and so on, but anywhere cyclists necessarily interacted with motorists would be business as usual, with typical results like victim blaming, media rabidity, and sorry mate, I didn't bother to observe properly, and get the hell off the road while you're at it. It's like doing an exam with instructions on exactly how to answer every question: you might be doing it right, but you're not learning anything.
We all know the UK is way behind some countries in actively favouring cycling and walking, and frankly, it has no-one to blame but itself.
Posted 11 years ago # -
We all know the UK is way behind some countries in actively favouring cycling and walking
'We' might know that, but I'm not altogether convinced that Scottish ministers do. Either KB is disingenuous, or he genuinely believes that Scotland is doing a good job on cycling infrastructure. He sees the 1-2% modal share, and the underused off-road paths, and maybe thinks "Well, that's the cycling nutters taken care of, job done. If they don't use the paths we've paid for and come a cropper on the roads, it's their own fault."
Many (non-cycling) drivers think the same way. Most could not care less about the needs of cyclists. If they go on holiday or business to European cities, and see happy cyclists on segregated infrastructure, it's just another continental curiosity, like salty licquorice, sauerkraut, bidets or 'coffee shops'. All very well 'over there' but it'll never catch on here...
Posted 11 years ago #
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