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OT: Portobello Park, New School, Court of Session

(35 posts)
  • Started 12 years ago by Wilmington's Cow
  • Latest reply from chdot

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  1. Sheesh, somehow it looks like the Portobello Park Action Group (PPAG) have won their case at the Court of Session, and the Council can't appropriate the section of Porty Park for the new Porty High. Kids in the area stuck with a school that when my other half was a pupil there 20+ years ago was not fit for purpose, let alone now.

    Notable (and perhaps understandable) that all of the houses with posters up for protecting the park were in the big hooses overlooking the park (who, bizarrely, had no problem with the Figgate Park being built on (it was one of their suggested alternatives) - while Porty Park is basically a rectangle of overgrown grass that you occasionally see someone walking a dog around), but really stuck in the craw some of the scare tactics used by PPAG (they really did knowingly mislead all over the place). But, from a purely legal point of view I can see why the judgement was arrived at (which was mainly on whether the council had power to appropriate the land, not on the impacts of building on the land).

    Wonder if the council will have the funds to take this further. Thing is, it has cost a huge amount of money so far, and it has been going on so long there's no doubt the work will have to be re-tendered, incurring even more expense.

    Sigh.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  2. crowriver
    Member

    NIMBYs.

    That's a real shocker. The waste of public cash, the impact on the education budget, I don't even want to think about it.

    I wonder what angle the EEN will take on this?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  3. Decision is here

    Bit of twitter traffic on this, seems the misinformation continues. Apparently many more people are against the Park than have publicly stated so because they've received threats from people who are pro-Park.

    Bearing in mind PPAG members went into shops in Porty displaying pro-NewSchool posters and threatened campaigns to withdraw custom from them by PPAG supporters.

    It's all very murky (there was a poster produced about kids being hit by cars on the main road if the new school got built - never understood that one, the kids from that side already have to cross that main road to get to the current school, the volume of kids crossing won't change at all (and indeed I think new crossings were part of the plan).

    Sigh x 2.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  4. SRD
    Moderator

    I'm very sympathetic to the specific issues here, but, I still find myself very relieved that the courts have said that if a city was given land with explicit terms that it be retained as parkland and specifically NOT built upon, then they shouldn't be allowed to build on it. I know my position on this is unpopular, but the abstract principle is surely right?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  5. Chimpofdoom
    Member

    I can see the arguments for and against the school being built upon this land.

    Even more so after what SRD said

    "if a city was given land with explicit terms that it be retained as parkland and specifically NOT built upon"

    However the issue remains that Porty needs a new school. The school I attended in Aberfeldy (Breadalbane Academy) was tore down a few years ago, rehoused in Port-a-cabins in the adjacent playing fields and re-built on the original land. Not an idea that could be replicated in Portobello though, unless they used the park....

    Posted 12 years ago #
  6. Yes, but what was also clear from the original judgement was that the decision to allow building on Porty Park was just for Porty Park, and could not be relied upon for any similar future plans, so the principle that, "if a city was given land with explicit terms that it be retained as parkland and specifically NOT built upon" was going to remain. The decision today hasn't actually confirmed that point, what it has confirmed is that specifically on the Porty Park situation the Council didn't have authority to appropriate the land.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  7. SRD
    Moderator

    Sorry WC, but saying you can do this once, but it doesn't set a precedent, doesn't diminish the fact that the will of person who gave that land to the city to be a park has been countermanded.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  8. So in no circumstances can historic wishes for land be superceded where a genuine need can be shown which actually benefits more people in the local community than originally?

    At present the park is scrubland, has been for years, which a few people walk their dogs in. The land was given over to the common good - the plans retained areas of the park in which dogs could still be walked, and by providing the area's kids (and their families) with a much better educational institution it is arguably providing much more common good.

    But yes, the actual decision, based on the legal position, is 100% correct.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  9. steveo
    Member

    As much as I hate to say it, I agree with the NIMBY's.

    The council seems intent on building on or selling off all the greenspace it can get away with either to finance debt or cover their day to day running expenses. The problem is that this greespace will run out long before the debt does. A more sustainable solution should be found and if land has been willed to the people of the city it should not be sold off or built on.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  10. chdot
    Admin

    Bit complicated - and messy.

    Some people may have been pursuing this (largely) in their own personal interest.

    The park is unattractive after years of neglect and underuse.

    The existing Porty High is partly past its sell by date due to neglect and underinvestment.

    It would be easier to replace by building on a (literally) green field site.

    CEC has been trying to do this unlawfully - and has been found out.

    Other sites have been rejected for various reasons.

    Other Edinburgh schools have been temporarily relocated to allow rebuilding.

    This is particularly difficult with Porty as it has a lot of pupils - was apparently largest secondary in western europe at one time.

    Perhaps rebuild on present site with fewer pupils.

    Perhaps revise the plans for replacing Castlebrae.

    Oh, but that would involve 'other issues'...

    One long term problem with local authorities is that there is never enough money for repairs but often money for BIG NEW PROJECTS.

    Another problem (I think largely associated with the Blair Government) has been the obsession with brand new state schools.

    Blair of course went to Fettes. No chance of that Victorian pile being declared past its sellby date, or the even older Heriots condemned as not fit for purpose.

    All very strange.

    Doesn't help Porty pupils, but CEC should have seen it coming.

    Let's hope they can conjure up a plan f quickly!

    Posted 12 years ago #
  11. chdot
    Admin

    Just seen this -

    "

    Parents’ fury over plan to close school

    Councillors have been accused of “ripping the heart out of the community” following the news that Castlebrae Community High School is set to close.

    "

    http://m.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/latest-news/parents-fury-over-plan-to-close-school-1-2521218

    Posted 12 years ago #
  12. chdot
    Admin

    Meanwhile, far away in another part of town -

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/education/whec-making-the-grade-1-2492864

    Posted 12 years ago #
  13. crowriver
    Member

    Beeb have picked up the story:

    Campaigners against building new school on land in Portobello win appeal

    Tom Ballantine vice chair of Portobello High School Parents' council, said: "I believe this is a very sad day for the Portobello Community. It's certainly a sad day for the young people of the area. This was a fantastic opportunity to get a wonderful new school. It's too early to know where this will go next."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-19570676

    Posted 12 years ago #
  14. crowriver
    Member

    Here's how it all started four years ago...

    School chosen from disrepair list

    Five schools in Edinburgh are on a disrepair shortlist

    Portobello High School is set to be rebuilt first out of a list of five Edinburgh schools shortlisted for the state of their disrepair. The £41.5m school plans mean Edinburgh City Council would need to find another £8.5m in February's budget to meet a shortfall. James Gillespie's High School is being recommended as being fixed second. Boroughmuir High School would be third, St John's Primary School fourth and St Crispin's Special School fifth.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7776079.stm

    Posted 12 years ago #
  15. steveo
    Member

    I do wonder what the plans were for the old facility? Sold off to a developer on the cheap to turn into flats no doubt. If they had promised to do some "community" stuff with it or turn it into a park facility maybe they'd have garnered more support. Though looking at the FUD campaign it probably wouldn't have made any difference.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  16. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Cllr. Andrew D Burns (@AndrewDBurns)

    12/09/2012 17:31

    I know opinions are strong on either side of the debate, but I'm personally deeply, deeply disappointed by today's Portobello HS judgement.

    "

    Posted 12 years ago #
  17. crowriver
    Member

    The NIMBYs may be in the right legally. The Council should have checked the legal situation and sorted it out before any plans were drawn up.

    However I have to say I'm not convinced by the retrospective seemingly egalitarian and noble 'protecting common good land' stance of the NIMBYs. If they were so well intentioned, why such a vicious campaign? Also, if providing comprehensive education is not a 'common good', what is?

    I'm afraid the burghers of Porty Park are up there in the 'get orf my land' brigade along with the 'Lords and Ladies' of Barnton/Cramond with their 'safety' concerns about passing cyclists.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  18. gembo
    Member

    If a new school had been built on the park site it would have been good for parents of high school age pupils and the pupils ( a new school is good). However, it would have been public private partnership and leased back to the authority. The last new schoolmbuiltin edinburgh still owned by the public was St Thomas of Aquins, very nice.

    I can't be certain but I would guess the porty park group don't have many high school age children as offspring?

    The authority has been using legal system over several years to alter use of land / buildings gifted to them for common good or educational reasons. The money they make in selling off assets is returned to citizens ( is the argument).

    This time the action group fought an organised campaign.

    aside from some dog walkers and local house owners disrupted by building work, there are no winners. principles are good but some principles re better than others.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  19. crowriver
    Member

    Kenny MacAskill ‘disappointed’ after Portobello High School protesters win legal fight

    According to the Hootsmon:

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/education/kenny-macaskill-disappointed-after-portobello-high-school-protesters-win-legal-fight-1-2521721

    Posted 12 years ago #
  20. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Chas Booth (@CllrChasBooth)

    12/09/2012 20:22

    Portobello Park & Common Good | Land Matters http://andywightman.com/?p=1562 <good summary of issues from @andywightman

    "

    Posted 12 years ago #
  21. crowriver
    Member

    More from Andy Wightman: at the end he suggests a way forward for the school to be built...!

    http://www.andywightman.com/?p=1574

    Posted 12 years ago #
  22. chdot
    Admin

  23. chdot
    Admin

    As I wrote yesterday -

    "
    Perhaps revise the plans for replacing Castlebrae.

    Oh, but that would involve 'other issues'...

    "

    "
    Radio Forth News (@RadioForthNews)
    13/09/2012 07:29
    Coming up in Forth News at 8...why new Portobello High should be in Craigmillar..Sun says sorry for Hillsborough..and HBOS banker's big fine

    "

    "
    Mark A Brown (@Mr_Mark_Brown)
    13/09/2012 07:37
    @RadioForthNews Can't see a move for a 'Super School' being built in Craigmillar being widely popular somehow.... What you say @talkporty ?

    "

    Posted 12 years ago #
  24. chdot
    Admin

    Current school at centre of catchment area -

    http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/1775/portobello_high_school_catchment_map

    Posted 12 years ago #
  25. wangi
    Member

    gembo - need to get the facts right. The budget for new Porty High is real money, not PFI / PPP / lease-back etc.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  26. wangi
    Member

    "What you say @talkporty" - Craigmillar is a non-starter and a distraction, and I'll expand on that late morning! Drop rip the school out of our community.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  27. chdot
    Admin

    "Craigmillar is a non-starter and a distraction"

    I think both parts of that are true.

    The Park option would still mean the school is pretty central to catchment area.

    Why can't it be moved to other end of park away from (some) objectors?

    The closing of Castlebrae and the delay of its replacement due to stalling of housebuilding in Niddrie/Craigmillar is basically a separate issue, but highlights the difficulty (and/or bad planning) of predicting and providing for school places (where people want them as well!)

    Previous CEC administration tried to close a lot of schools (mostly primary, but also Castlebrae and WHEC) now CEC is faced with an increased(ing?) birth rate.

    Apparently the population of Edinburgh passed 500,000 last week.

    Edinburgh has three sorts of schools - private, good council, not so good council (that is not an order of 'quality') with all the related social and traffic issues.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  28. wangi
    Member

    The other end of the park (as in the golf course) is still on the same land title (Portobello Park), the same common good land and the ruling applies to it too.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  29. chdot
    Admin

    "the same common good land and the ruling applies to it too"

    Yes, but Andy Wightman suggests transfer of ownership to a local interest group as a possible way forward.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  30. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Today, parents, councillors and politicians called on the council to consider building a new high school in Craigmillar to accommodate pupils from Castlebrae Community High School – which is set to close next summer following poor exam results and a falling school roll – and Portobello High School. Labour councillor for Craigentinny/Duddingston, Alex Lunn, said 50 per cent of his ward was “depending on a new Portobello High School” and, along with MP for Edinburgh East Sheila Gilmore, called on the council to organise a summit with the community to decide the best way forward.

    "

    http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/education/portobello-high-school-ruling-council-ponder-next-move-as-park-plan-is-overturned-on-appeal-1-2523528

    Posted 12 years ago #

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