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Desire lines

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Started 11 years ago by chdot
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chdot
Admin

Gets mentioned on here occasionally - usually when an informal route has been improved, or ought to be.

With all the talk about trams and Leith Walk and improving Neighbourhood Partnerships/local democracy it would be interesting to 'CCEsource' a list to show a few 'simple' improvements that could be carried out at (relatively) minimal cost.

"
In Finland, planners are known[citation needed] to visit their parks immediately after the first snowfall, when the existing paths are not visible.[citation needed] People naturally choose desire lines, which are then clearly indicated by their footprints and can be used to guide the routing of new purpose built paths.

"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desire_path

Some examples on Google

Ideas could include drop kerbs (like the infamous missing one at Harrison Park/Road.

Also things as 'extreme' barriers - anything that inconveniences/discourages people with buggies, wheelchairs etc.

Posted 11 years ago #
Arellcat
Moderator

The Scottish Government knows all about desire lines; plenty of reference to them in the Designing Streets consultation in 2009.

Chapter G3 on street users' needs is quite interesting from a cyclist's point of view.

Posted 11 years ago #
Tulyar
Member

Another detail after snowfall is to see where the roads return to black and where the snow lies undisturbed - this shows which bits of road are quite clearly not required, and prime candidates for digging up and restoring to grass or other uses which cost less to maintain and soak up water rather than enhance the flooding risk.

Posted 11 years ago #
cc
Member

I'd like to have snow cleared from cycle lanes, not just from the middle of the street.
And I'd like to see minor, residential roads being gritted when it's frosty, not just arterial roads.
I'd like residential roads selectively blocked to cars with bollards, but with official cycle paths going through the obstruction, to stop the roads becoming unofficial commuter speedways (like the upper section of Findhorn Place for example, you'd never guess it had a 20mph speed limit).
I'd like Macdowall Road similarly blocked off to stop car and bus drivers using it as a rat run to avoid the traffic lights at West Savile Terrace / Mayfield Road. Or failing that some sleeping policemen.
Back when I lived in Easter Road and commuted to King's Buildings via the Dumbiedykes-to-Engine-Shed-to-Innocent cycle path I used to want a dropped kerb at the south end of Viewcraig Gardens and a bit of widened path to link it safely to the cycle path to the Innocent, so that I could safely get between the path and the road without being glared at by old ladies walking their dogs.
That kind of thing?

Posted 11 years ago #
Dave
Member

I'd like Macdowall Road similarly blocked off to stop car and bus drivers using it as a rat run to avoid the traffic lights at West Savile Terrace / Mayfield Road.

This really annoys me as drivers now cut me up when they see the lights turn red and dive left into Macdowall Rd, which didn't used to happen before (or at least, it only happened at the big junction which is more predictable).

All they really need to do is make Macdowall Rd and Saville Place one way (so you can only exit the estate there, not enter it) as with the top of Langton Rd.

Traffic island and sign post, shouldn't cost a fortune...

Posted 11 years ago #
gembo
Member

@ Tulyar, good point but would also need to factor that where you drive in snow is maybe different from when there is no snow? I try to remind myself in snow to stick to middle of main road but I forget and fall off

Posted 11 years ago #
kaputnik
Moderator

It is not just cyclists that stupid chicane infrastructure inhibits - it is families with pushchairs (as modelled here) and those with wheelchairs. And it is not just cyclists who create desire lines around them.

This example has two lines as can be seen.

The "planner" has perhaps been fretting over proximity to both Gylemuir and Corstorphine schools and that the big red speedbump creating a level surface across the road might encourage a child to run out - therefore has decided (and failed) to fence them in at both ends. It would be easy to saw off one side of the chicane and leave a visible barrier without it being such a physical barrier to people.

Posted 11 years ago #
Uberuce
Member

My bugbear of late: the Broomhouse path. The desire line for pedestrians is the cycle side because it's further away from the noise and spray of traffic. Thanks to those depletive excreted rumblestrips, the desire line for cyclists is (at least in places) the pedestrian side.

Solution: remove the bike markings and paint new ones on what is currently the pedestrian half.

Posted 11 years ago #
Nelly
Member

Uberuce +1

By the way, if you want a giggle, go all the way to edin park station. This weeks cycle route thru the tramworks is a marvel - that i have not fallen off yet is a mystery.

Some great desire lines in meadows today, some bikey, some ped - all make total sense.

Posted 11 years ago #
amir
Member

I'd like the bike bits of the road nicely surfaced and cycle paths swept regularly.

Posted 11 years ago #
Peterward2008
Member

+1 Amir

I road cycle a route I could do on the cycle routes due to them not being swept regularly of leaves etc.

Posted 11 years ago #
cb
Member

Here's one:

Desire line by ccbb7766, on Flickr

Posted 11 years ago #
Min
Member

It seems to me that when roads are built, they are built as far as possible in a way that gets the driver directly to where they want to go, geography and other problems permitting.

When it comes to building paths or cycle paths, suddenly "aesthetics" comes into play and aesthetics mean big sweeping curves and meandering walkways which look pretty but which make everybody take a lot longer to get to where they are going.

Alternatively there is the utilatarian approach of just making a cross shape, regardless of whether the arms of that cross go to where people want to go or whether people are likely to walk that cross shape rather than just to straight the the exit they want.

Posted 11 years ago #
kaputnik
Moderator

Sweeping curves I don't mind. they are quite navigable. The endless right-angles and deliberate misalignment where paths cross roads I do mind. No amount of tarmac and fencing will change the natural desire to follow the path of least resistance. They should teach planners that on day 1 of planning school.

Posted 11 years ago #
pjmatthews
Member

We do! Desire lines are a basic part of urban design for planners and also part of the education for landscape architects (who are actually to blame for paths like that in the photo).

Posted 11 years ago #
amir
Member

I really don't like this "sweeping" curve

https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=55.938358,-3.11889&spn=0.000524,0.001206&t=h&z=20

It has several problems:
- the trees mean that it can be difficult to see what's coming.
- the surface is brick! Can get slippy
- trees on the corner and regularly mowing adds to the slip factor
- the angle is far more acute than it needs to be

Posted 11 years ago #
amir
Member

A desire line on the NCR 1

https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=55.931227,-3.064142&spn=0.000524,0.001206&t=h&z=20

Posted 11 years ago #
Peterward2008
Member

North Edinburgh Desire lines

Another set of desire lines in North Edinburgh:

Posted 11 years ago #
Min
Member

"They should teach planners that on day 1 of planning school. "

"We do!"

Well there's your problem. By the time they have finshed planning school they have forgotten about it. Teach them on the last day instead, then they'll remember it. :-P

Posted 11 years ago #
Peterward2008
Member

Correct link

Posted 11 years ago #
Dave
Member

There does always seem to be a disparity between what gets built and any imaginable reason for building it. For instance, you'd think that eventually someone involved in planning would learn to cycle and immediately think "hey, all of this stuff is just dire, no wonder people ignore or moan about it" (in fact, I'm compelled to think that they must have done so!)

Yet, every time a new facility is put in it invariably features serious design failings. Compare the Broomhouse path with North Edinburgh Path Network - the latter is a pleasure to use, the former has newly built slippery "tramline" paving stones, pedestrians prefer the "cycling side" (and it's an offence for cyclists to avoid them by going onto the other side)

BUT, surely many more planners actually do cycle nowadays than in the days when NEPN was tarmacked?

I sometimes ride on the new cycling cut through from King's Haugh to the Innocent, but the railings make it extremely difficult to do so with a trailer - luckily mine doesn't have kids in it, as I've clattered it a few times :(

Posted 11 years ago #
Morningsider
Member

Dave - that's a bit harsh. I would count myself as "someone involved in planning" and I have been cycling for many a year. Lots of planners, architects and landscape architects cycle - as a group they tend to be more concerned about the environment and urban design than many people (although there are exceptions).

However, professionals in the UK have fairly limited power on what actually gets built compared with politicians, developers and the money men. Could they all do better? Probably, but I think the real ire should be directed at the people with the greatest influence.

I could go on at length about how (I think) real planning in the UK effectively died a death on the 80's - but I'll spare you all that.

Posted 11 years ago #
Dave
Member

But politicians don't actually come up with things like "tramline" tactile paving, right?

In fact, if you complain to your MSP / councillor about a fall on the tactile paving due to the ridiculous parallel edges, they'll tell you regretfully that they can't do anything about it because it's part of the regs of constructing that type of path.

If planners (as a professional group, not so much as individuals) aren't responsible for these things, who is?

Posted 11 years ago #
Morningsider
Member

The development of the tactile paving guidance was really due to pressure from the RNIB and Guide Dogs for the Blind Association - both well established and very effective campaign groups that carry far more clout than any cycling group. The guidance will have been developed by generalist civil servants at the behest of politicians and will have involved input from professionals and others with an interest in the subject.

It is important to remember that this is guidance - developers can, and do, ignore it. Anyone that says they have to follow it is (at best) exaggerating - see most shared use/segregated paths for evidence that the guidance is not followed in most cases.

It is important to remember that cyclists aren't the only people lobbying Government to further their own aims. "Planners" are an easy target - but their powers are far more limited than most people seem to imagine.

Posted 11 years ago #
Arellcat
Moderator

The guidance will have been developed by generalist civil servants at the behest of politicians and will have involved input from professionals and others with an interest in the subject.

The guidance, particularly in the design specification of tactile surfaces, is informed by repeated testing in controlled environments with the end users. These are the people who can say during an experiment that a 3mm projection is not detectable while 5mm or 10mm is; that a greater proportion of users more rapidly identified transverse projections than inline; when step heights or slope angles become hazardous or intuitive.

Though this is straying somewhat from desire lines.

Posted 11 years ago #
Snowy
Member

Edinburgh Park station is developing its own desire lines. Namely, rather than take the 20 metre hairpin detour suggested by the designers from tram platform to shared path between tram/rail platforms, most cyclists are opting for the simple 2 metre 'over the grassy verge' shortcut. Already fairly churned up. I suspect a re-educational fence will be installed in short order.

Posted 11 years ago #
Dave
Member

Becky - it sounds like on the Broomhouse path (which admittedly is only on my route if I make a spectacular detour) the pedestrians are walking on the bike side while cyclists go on the pedestrian side - presumably blind folk notwithstanding.

If I approach some ridged paving and cross over to go on the "rumble strip" rather than the "tramline" (for the sake of argument) isn't that essentially a desire line phenomenon?

Posted 11 years ago #
gembo
Member

Broomhouse - stenhouse path generally works for pedestrians and cyclists as the two lanes help with people not being where they are supposed to be. Despite all the trams gubbings getting in the way it still works. Admittedly not that many pedestrians and not huge number of cyclists. Some even go on the road but the surface is poor. This all ends badly at Edinburgh Park Station. also getting on at stenhouse is a bit wrong for me as ten yards of pavement into blinding sun at the moment. Also the rumble strips are wrong. I come off at the pits five a sides. That can involve a wait for gap in traffic. There is then a huge metal plate on the road that needs navigation and some bumps on the road up to Stevenson. However, this route stops me going tonedinburgh park which is both a mess and where I was nearly busted

Posted 11 years ago #
Kirst
Member

I could go on at length about how (I think) real planning in the UK effectively died a death on the 80's - but I'll spare you all that.
I blame Thatcher.

I have a theory that all that is wrong in this world can be traced back to her somehow.

Posted 11 years ago #
Arellcat
Moderator

@gembo, I caught a train at Edinburgh Park yesterday, having come from town direction. The cycle expressway where it parallels Bankhead Drive was practically unusable because the HERAS fencing has been erected on it, reducing the available width to that of a narrow pavement. I was using the road per usual.

Further on towards EDP the path widens out again, but there was a water tanker damping down the dust, and occupying the entire width of the tarmac. I was still using the road.

When I got to the "Buses only" bit, I diverted onto the cycle path, nearly getting a snakebite in the process because the lowered kerb is vicious (can't unweight your wheels on a recumbent). Then I manoeuvred myself around the little switchback access path to the station entrance. Not as tight or narrow as the one at the West Approach Road, but tight enough.

I wish they would fixed the shocking tarmac all along Broomhouse Drive and Bankhead Drive. The city feels like a perpetual obstacle course.

Posted 11 years ago #

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