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My child's safety...

(73 posts)
  • Started 11 years ago by Roibeard
  • Latest reply from Min
  • This topic is not a support question

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  1. Roibeard
    Member

    I'm taking the eldest to high school by bike. There's an advisory cycle lane part of the way, but it gives up in the final block, after the last major traffic-light controlled junction and before the right turn into the school. There is a (currently inoperative) part time 20mph for the last 25m or so. Traffic lights to school entrance takes less than a minute at daughter speed.

    First attempt was to adopt a single file, right turning position early on, so that vehicles continuing past the school could undertake. Quickly decided not to do this after a right hook incident with another parent delivering their cargo and apparently confused as to why we were in the middle of the road.

    Second attempt, modify approach and remain on the left, then take up the whole lane at the point the road narrows. Worked a bit better, for a bit longer, but then we got shaved by someone overtaking just after the lights, as we were attempting to avoid the dodgy road surface.

    Third attempt, this time we'll double up for the whole length of the road from the traffic lights, even though that means taking up an inordinate amount of room for the first 10m after the lights.

    Now we get hoots.

    So, I've knocked up an A4 sheet, to be used whilst indicating right for the school turn, after someone has hooted at us.

    Yes, my child's safety is more important than 60 seconds of your time

    Too passive aggressive?

    Robert

    Posted 11 years ago #
  2. Smudge
    Member

    Pretty reasonable I'd say, I'd be reaching for the airzound and a couple of video cameras personally, one front one rear and every bad pass/toot of the horn gets sent to the headmaster/headmistress with a letter explaining that if they don't publicise the bad/dangerous behaviour to parents the next set of complaints will be going staight to the police along with the video evidence.

    Stupid and dangerous driving annoys me somewhat, but outside schools and around children it really makes me furious!

    Posted 11 years ago #
  3. DaveC
    Member

    Its a shame there is no crossing (is there a crossing?). This way you could cycle up on the left. Stop, dismount and cross at a traditional crossing, perhaps with a lights phase including cyclists, like they do on parts of the continent. Drivers (on the right) leave the road and make a left turn to stop at lights. These turn green (stopping traffic on the main road) allowing cars to cross the road. This replaces the British method of moving out into the middle of the road (as you have pointed out - is quite dangerous) whilse they wait to cross the opposite lane of oncoming traffic.

    Incidentally, this is exactly what I do at the top of Broughton Street. I stop outside Cafe Piccante and walk to the crossing. Then cross on the green ped light with other peds. I have seen cycles pass me and cycle round the roundabout and get ahead of me on York Place but I would not like to risk crossing 3 lanes of traffic at the top of Elm Place/York Place and navigating that roundabout.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  4. DaveC
    Member

    Robert, assuming its Liberton High, can you not access from Mount Vernon Road instead of Gilmerton Road? I don't know from which way you access the school and assume you ride up Gilmerton Road and cross the junction at Mt Vernon and Kingston Ave?

    I know this is modifiying your desired route for safety reasons but I cycle defensively which includes backing off confrontational situations and locations, like dangersous right turns as I wrote about above.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  5. Roibeard
    Member

    @DaveC, well spotted. Yes, we could turn right on to Mount Vernon road and walk the last quarter mile or so through the school grounds. Given that the entire route is less than a mile, that would probably mean abandoning the bike altogether. However that would still mean a right turn (or dismount at the junction with Mount Vernon).

    The alternative, as you suggest, is to cycle to the pedestrian lights beyond the school entrance and walk across there, however the right turn isn't much of an issue, rather the close passes (on either side). Use of the crossing still invites close passes at the narrowest part of the road, hence the need to move into primary as per the 2nd attempt.

    Since we can't arrange an escort home (via the northbound advisory cycle lane car park), she already needs to walk half way home to meet the rest of the brood leaving the primary school.

    Yes, I know the bike seems pointless, yet...

    Robert

    Posted 11 years ago #
  6. Instography
    Member

    Pavement?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  7. Smudge
    Member

    @Insto, ideal for walking on, yes ;-)

    Posted 11 years ago #
  8. Nelly
    Member

    Roibeard,

    I left Liberton 27 years ago (!!) and know exactly the spot you are having trouble with.

    I agree entirely with Insto - the infrastructure breaks down - not your fault - so according to my 'laws are only advisory if they make sense' hat - you must mount the pavement at the Mount Vernon lights.

    I would also bring up the issue with the school council - you cant be the only family with this issue approaching from the north.

    Only other option - as noted earlier - is to get to the ped lights then dismount / remount up school drive.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  9. Darkerside
    Member

    Virtual Googlemap cycling thoughts...

    I'd try and stick with your first idea. Seems the most logical, perhaps you were just unlucky with one daft eejit doing an undertake/right hook? Maybe sit a touch back and left of the daughter to present a bigger joint object on the road and make it completely visible to sleepy drivers behind there are two of you?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  10. Roibeard
    Member

    Doubling up presents the largest possible object, and the delay introduced to motorists can only be a maximum of 60 seconds. I doubt that any will attempt to simply drive through us (Carlton Reid may beg to differ).

    The alternative would be swapping to walking rather than pavement cycling.

    As for the school's interest - they've a cycling modal share of ~1%...

    Robert

    Posted 11 years ago #
  11. Instography
    Member

    To be honest, and at the risk of committing another cycling heresy, for a journey of a mile, walking is the better activity from an active travel point of view in the sense that it uses more energy to walk a mile than it does to cycle it. If my kid was a mile from school I'd rather they walked than cycled.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  12. steveo
    Member

    I'd be inclined to walk that, though I can understand why you wouldn't.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  13. Roibeard
    Member

    @Inst - *burn the heretic*

    @Steveo - *burn the h* - oh, sorry, you managed to walk that fine line on the correct side of orthodoxy.

    Thanks guys for provoking some thought here!

    First up, I'm going to demonstrate some inertial thinking, folks...

    I commute by bike, so I got the kids to cycle the half mile to primary school, in order that I could drop them off and carry on to work. (How familiar does that sound?)

    With the eldest moving to high school, 1 mile away, I've simply transferred the cycling to there (yep, more inertia). It does mean that I can drop her off, and be back to take the boys to the primary and carry on to work, yet she could be walking unaccompanied.

    However the unanticipated advantage to this time & energy efficient, yet exercise deficient, regimen is that we've become skilled, practiced and experienced enough everyday cyclists to tackle the weekly runs (swimming, music, squash, church) also by bike.

    The kids therefore manage ~30 miles per week because we were doing ~5 per week on the school run. Had we walked the 5, I sincerely doubt that we would have even considered doing the other 25 by bike.

    So, yes, the school run ate into walking's modal share [1], but by doing so, it changed thought patterns and habits such that car use was also eroded, and by much more.

    Fascinating! I'd bet most folk are just like me, making such unconscious decisions, orbits in fixed patterns and switches in thinking.

    Incidentally, I can make retrospective justification for cycling to the High, in that we hope she'll get a place in a different school that would be too far to walk, and we wish to keep her in practice. But that idea was only presented after the challenge - the originally plans were simply not that well thought out!

    Robert

    [1] Reports do suggest that cycling tends to erode walking and public transport - BBC News late last night mentioned that Hong Kong doesn't wish to promote cycling to the detriment of its public transport, in a piece on cycling helping with transport and pollution problems in the territory.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  14. chdot
    Admin

    "Hong Kong doesn't wish to promote cycling to the detriment of its public transport"

    To some extent the reverse is true in London.

    Whatever the actual costs of Boris Bikes, much cheaper than increasing tube capacity.

    I would be surprised if Lothian Buses was doing anything to discourage 'cycle use policies', but there is not much chance of a bike hire scheme being seen as 'cheaper and more effective than more/newer buses'.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  15. Min
    Member

    Yeah, but a public who is not dependent on the authorities for transport (either by providing public transport or providing more and more roads and car parks) is not so easily controlled.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  16. "Yeah, but a public who is not dependent on the authorities for transport (either by providing public transport or providing more and more roads and car parks) is not so easily controlled"

    Want a tin foil hat to go with that post? ;)

    Posted 11 years ago #
  17. crowriver
    Member

    Min has a point. At the risk of resurrecting an old internet meme, the N**is persecuted cyclists and cycling clubs because they were seen as dangerously unconventional, subversive even. Not sufficiently supporting the manufacture of the "people's car" and the building of motorways perhaps? Or too independent, free spirited and mobile?

    *burn the heretic*

    Alas, you just can't get quality kindling nowadays.

    Reports do suggest that cycling tends to erode walking and public transport

    Anecdotally, I can confirm this. Can't actually recall the last time I was on a bus. Cycle nearly everywhere, even with the kids. When this is not as practical (eg. high winds, ice/snow, lashing cold rain) I have considered taking the bus. However so far we have decided just to walk. It's often quicker, and has the added benefits of fresh air and tiring wee legs out.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  18. sallyhinch
    Member

    To return slightly to the original topic, is it worth getting a hi-vis vest printed with 'Child cycling to school, please be patient' on the back? Of course Roibeard would have to wear it, you can't inflict that on a teenager/preteen.

    Can you not cycle through the school grounds if you take the other route? Or is that verboten by the school?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  19. steveo
    Member

    *burn the h* - oh, sorry, you managed to walk that fine line on the correct side of orthodoxy.

    Oh, heretic, that's alright then. I thought this thread was about to get nasty!

    Posted 11 years ago #
  20. fimm
    Member

    The people hooting at you probably think your daughter shouldn't be cycling on the road at all. She should be inside a nice, safe car...

    Posted 11 years ago #
  21. Min
    Member

    Liberton High has just won an award for being "cycling friendly"

    I would suggest a word with whatever heid honcho one needs to talk to to point out that it isn't at all friendly and offer to show them why if they disagree.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  22. Min
    Member

    In fact it looks as if it is volunteers that have put in any effort so they should be receptive.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  23. LaidBack
    Member

    Yes fimm - sadly that is true.

    Good on Roibeard for flagging this topic up though. Doing the 'school run' is a topic that affects many forumers.

    After many years of using a tandem to 'co-cycle' with my daughter I realised that attitudes were fairly set then on how people get to school and after school clubs / dance classes etc. (I reckon we live in an even more conformist society with social norms propogated by those that want to sell 'stuff'.)

    Most parents were surprised we survived. The advantages of free parking and faster cross city travel didn't convert them. Slow travel by car still won - although they would race you to the gates!

    Sally - 'Child cycling to school, please be patient'
    Yes.... once they go to secondary school they have even more pressure from their peers and the older students to 'fit in'. Primary Schools often have less than 500 and at bell time there seems to be as many parents as children. Big secondarys have 2000 and fewer adults on foot, let alone on a bike. Children are exposed to attitudes they haven't come across before - everything is examined as cool and uncool. As you know - they become obsessed about how they look and what they wear.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  24. Darkerside
    Member

    I conclude that it is therefore vital to look cool on the bike.

    Hand me my spangly jacket and enormous shades!

    Posted 11 years ago #
  25. crowriver
    Member

    Hand me my spangly jacket and enormous shades!

    I hope that's "Nicolas Cage in Wild At Heart" rather than "Elton John in Tommy".

    Posted 11 years ago #
  26. Roibeard
    Member

    @Min - the school may be cycle friendly, but the road outside isn't...

    The scheme is about promoting and encouraging cycling, but stops short at improving access to the school, however Cycling Scotland considers that:

    The number one reason most people don’t cycle is lack of confidence. By offering training you can boost pupils’ confidence and provide them with valuable life-skills.

    So the close passes and hooting may simply be down to a lack of confidence on our part.

    Robert

    Posted 11 years ago #
  27. crowriver
    Member

    So the close passes and hooting may simply be down to a lack of confidence on our part.

    Maybe the drivers are critiquing insufficient hi-viz body armour, helmetage deficiences, and you plus daughter "weaving around erratically in the middle of the road/in our way"? Just at a guess.

    Of course all the "unsafe" behaviours you were exhibiting can be put down to lack of self confidence. I mean, if you had any self respect, you'd be in a car, right?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  28. cc
    Member

    Reports do suggest that cycling tends to erode walking and public transport

    I can't find it (drat!) but I remember reading a fascinating piece on a bike blog about the relative popularity of cars, public transport & bicycles in Europe.
    From what I remember, the standard pattern is for people to use public transport a lot in poorer countries, but to move to car use as they get richer. So the highest public transport use in the EU is in countries like Latvia, and the highest car use in richer countries like the UK. You get one or the other - high public transport use and low car use, or high car use and low public transport use.
    The interesting thing is how the Netherlands is different - it has pretty near the lowest rate of car use in the EU *and* the lowest rate of public transport use. Because so many people cycle.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  29. Min
    Member

    Definitely your fault somehow.

    The scheme is about promoting and encouraging cycling, but stops short at improving access to the school, however Cycling Scotland considers that:

    One can't help feeling that somehow improving the access might go some way to promoting and encouraging cycling but what would I know?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  30. Nelly
    Member

    My office won that award too - the week before they removed my locker !!

    Took a week of wrangling to get another (less roomy)one.

    I wonder how many awards are won on the basis of ability to fill in a form.......

    Posted 11 years ago #

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