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The latest 'danger' from cyclists

(63 posts)
  • Started 11 years ago by Wilmington's Cow
  • Latest reply from Arellcat

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  1. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Chatting to someone I work with this morning about cycling and driving, she mentioned that cyclists who 'get off their bikes at red lights, walk across, and get back on' are 'dangerous'.

    It sounded odd to me, when digging further it seems that it's actually more because it's 'annoying', but as well as that many cyclists getting back on on the other side are doing so 'not to the side, but in the middle of the road', and that they aren't in control when they set off again either. Had to ponder who the danger was to really, but apparently by the time they get back on the lgihts have changed back to green anyway and so there are cars coming up behind them as they get back on in the middle of the road.

    There wasn't anything malicious in the observation, but the idea was not for turning either (I used the 'killed by...' stat comparison of bikes to cars and that's so different because there are so many more cars - though it was conceded that proportionately that still didn't work).

    I think it's been touched on before here, that things are tagged as 'dangerous' either because non-cyclists don't actually understand what someone is doing (and when you're in the saddle it's perfectly safe), or simply because it's an easy get out when you find something annoying, but there's nothing illegal about what someone is doing. Mark it as dangerous and all of a sudden you can either make that cyclist out to be a bad person, or come across as compassionate because you're worried about their safety.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  2. DaveC
    Member

    I don't bother, as I save really no time at all. Plus waiting at the lights I see cyclists going through the red light and can shake my head, which hopefully will show drivers not all cyclists go through red lights.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  3. SRD
    Moderator

    I only walk across when the light goes red just as I have arrived. But I can imagine WC's colleague is one of the people I regularly encounter at Home St/Gilmore Place...

    Posted 11 years ago #

  4. ARobComp
    Member

    I do it occasionally if I'm in a rush but only on lights where I know the sequence is going to take ages to change. Most of the time it doesn't save that much time or there is another red further on which is not easy to cross on.

    Plus it helps me practice my dismount/remount...

    Posted 11 years ago #

  5. steveo
    Member

    I only do it at one set of lights and only if I arrive just as "my" sequence has changed. Its a very slow four way and with pedestrian phase I seem to sit for ever. I tried it once at the newish junction at fountain bridge, by the time I remounted the light was changing and the bike at the front of the queue was just about on me.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  6. Dave
    Member

    Astute analysis, even walking with your bike can be a "dangerous cyclists" moment, whereas if you're with the pram or zimmer it's quite alright....

    I do it all the time, especially if I want to turn right (in which case the saving is Time for full cycle of lights + time for all oncoming traffic to pass me).

    I'd say on a typical commute I might walk across the junction outside the pub formerly known as Bierex, then again in front of the Bicycle Repair Man, possibly the Bridges/Royal Mile, then Canonmills.

    Often it's not worth it but I think it probably saves me up to 5 minutes on a 20 minute ride, which is not to be sniffed at.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  7. amir
    Member

    I sometimes do it on the right turn from Lady Road into Gilmerton Road - when I am feeling scared. It feels very exposed there.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  8. thebikechain
    Member

    I'm never in that much of a rush that i would ever dismount etc.

    Leave more time?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  9. earthowned
    Member

    I'd mostly wait, unless I'm turning right and the lights have just changed then I'd rather dismount and walk than sit stationary in the middle of a busy junction.

    A couple of times I've been waiting and signalling to turn right when I've had white van drivers think its funny to drive close and lean out the window and try to high 5 me. Anyone else had that happen to them?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  10. AKen
    Member

    I occasionally do this at on Wester Hailes Road. The junction of Westburn Ave and Murrayburn Rd with WH Road is staggered so there are two sets of lights to go through. They're timed so that, as you get a green light out of one of the side-roads, the lights letting you into the other one immediately turn red - so it's usually two long waits within a few metres of one another. I'll sometimes therefore hop off after the first one, walk over the junction and jump on again to carry on. (Although recently I've just taken to avoiding the junction entirely and cutting under WH road on the canal path. That way I can often get all the way to work without ever having to stop at all - if I'm lucky at the give-way junctions.)

    Posted 11 years ago #

  11. Darkerside
    Member

    There's apparently someone in London who uses a running cyclocross dismount technique to skip the white line, then immediately remounts and continues (as the offense is crossing the white line whilst the light is red).

    Equally dim-witted as RLJ-ing in my mind, although reported as being highly entertaining to watch.

    I'll walk around the left hand turn on one junction on my standard commute if I hit it at just the wrong time.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  12. kaputnik
    Moderator

    I do this for the right turn at end of Gilmore Place at the Kings, if I arrive just as the lights change to red, otherwise it's a long wait in an ASL that is reguarly clipped by the right turning busses from Home Street. There are no cars coming behind you, so cannot see how it can be "dangerous". I apprecite it must annoy them, but they could get on their bike and cycle if they want to enjoy priveleges such as this.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  13. Arellcat
    Moderator

    I can imagine WC's colleague is one of the people I regularly encounter at Home St/Gilmore Place...

    I use that junction a lot too, though I go through in the opposite direction. When Gilmore Place gets the green, if you're first in line you can often scoot across before the Tarvit Street traffic arrives, if bicycles precede cars, but otherwise you're stuck and often the light is back on red before you have a chance to go. More vehicles do seem to go east to west than west to east. In that situation I do sometimes hop off and walk my bike across the green man to the King's, remount and carry on.

    The alternative takes a long time and the ASL on Gilmore Place is very exposed to traffic turning right from Home St, especially buses.

    Edit: Great minds think alike, K!

    I tried it once at the newish junction at fountain bridge

    Given the three Toucan crossings and associated dropped kerbs, if you're riding eastbound it is actually quicker overall to use the crossing at Gardner's Crescent and rejoin Fountainbridge than wait for a full cycle of lights (which also means you have to then enforce primary position past the taxi rank).

    Posted 11 years ago #

  14. cb
    Member

    The lights at Morningside Station will hold you at red for 90 seconds (assuming the traffic is not very light and that there is a Ped phase).

    Walking across with the green man wouldn't really work for me as it comes in the 'wrong' part of the sequence for the direction I am normally travelling in.

    I've just calculated that to go the 'long way round' and miss out this junction in the morning would take an extra 48 seconds at 15mph. Don't think thats worth it given I'd need to factor a right hand turn onto Morningside Road.

    I've never really thought to use the Green man phase when turning right at Holy Corner from Colinton Road. What I would appriciate there, is a feeder into the ASL so I can get aware before the predicatably ponderous cars.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  15. Baldcyclist
    Member

    I always wait at the lights, doesn't really bother me (that much ;) ) what others do.
    Although I sometimes do wonder if the argument we often use for poor overtakes or a wee bit of speeding could apply to us sometimes.... Is it really that important that you save 20 seconds, could you not have waited?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  16. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Personally, I'm aware that sitting doing nothing for 60 seconds feels very much longer than traffic jamming for 60 seconds. But some light sequences can take much longer, and there can be more at stake than simply journey time.

    The Gilmore/Tarvit junction for example is quite dangerous in certain situations when it is safer to become a pedestrian temporarily. All red lights mean loss of body heat in cold weather, especially if traffic levels and unfriendly infrastructure mean missing the first green and thus waiting through two whole cycles of lights.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  17. Dave
    Member

    For me, a few minutes saved is worth the minimal hassle of getting off the bike every now and then, especially combined with not having to sit in the middle of the road indicating right for a full sequence of lights, while the whole main road undertakes you at 30mph and you're a few inches from oncoming 30mph traffic too.

    I don't really see any reason not to walk pushing your bike. It's legal, quick, safe (arguably safer than waiting for the traffic to go, depending on the junction), and if other people don't want to sit and wait for a few minutes, they're free to leave their car at home?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  18. Firedog
    Member

    I think it smacks of driver frustration rather than anything else.

    I do the dismount very occasionally at one busy junction when I'm looking to turn right, have just missed the lights and so I'm at the head of the queue. If I don't I have to wait a couple of minutes while two rows of traffic grows right behind me. And when the lights change I have to sit in the junction of the road waiting for a change to cross across another two.

    By contrast if I dismount and walk across while I have the green man in my favour I can be cycling along for a good 20 seconds before I have any traffic behind me.

    I know which approach I think is more dangerous.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  19. chdot
    Admin

    Not often..

    Pushing across a junction is like too much walking...

    Turning left sometimes if I've just missed the lights - e.g. Chambers Street to Bridges.

    Get the impression that some people think it's illegal.

    Can be anti-social if too many pedestrians around.

    Certainly think some drivers get envious - which may not help their blood pressure -

    BUT dangerous?? Hardly!

    Posted 11 years ago #

  20. gembo
    Member

    The one at the kings, if I am at head of queue and the green man comes on I will dismount and push. Lot of risk at that junction from motorists and very occasionally from fellow cyclists.

    The wester Hailes one I might cut across towards the centre as the road is taking me away from where I want to go.

    neither of these manoeuvres is dangerous. The former will annoy some people, the latter no one is bothered.

    On gorgie road I will activate the pedestrian crossing thennpush bike across the road. This lets me into fords road on a tough right and lets cars in and out of fords road too. This definitely annoys some people

    Posted 11 years ago #

  21. Morningsider
    Member

    I do this very infrequently, generally when time is short and I am at the head of a queue and know that I will be waiting some time and can safely re-mount before the traffic starts again.

    That said, I adopt a safety first approach and will dismount and push if I feel a particular situation calls for it. I also see this as one of the benefits of cycling - you can simply become a pedestrian when you need to. I would never consider this to be a dangerous manouvre, but I do think it annoys some motorists as they just have to wait (ah, the freedom of motoring!).

    Still, I think it says something about the state of our road network when seasoned cyclists feel the need to dismount to avoid turning right at certain junctions.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  22. SRD
    Moderator

    there's a real irony to this discussion. this morning I was at the 'kings' intersection discussed, where there was a long queue that did not get through on one phase of lights (traffic was backed up further down towards tollcross). I cycled carefully up the left side of the queue and deposited myself at the ASL. When lights changed, thwere were three cars waiting on tarvit st, and I (foolishly) let them go - or at least the first,. the second then put on a right turn signal. So, then I went, but I was blocked by vehicle in the way (maybe it was the one I had thought was going straight, which must have turned left), and then a taxi did a u-turn. meanwhile car behind decides to overtake me, only of course to have to brake for the taxi. There's me stuck in the middle of car mayhem. the guy behind trying to overtake to my right, while I'm trying to go out around car by the King's, was a nightmare. Loony BMWdriver again. Definitely a case for walking across on pedestrian phase. but I get crap for that there regularly too.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  23. Dave
    Member

    I wonder what proportion of people jump red lights primarily because they're afraid to wait. Sure, that explanation doesn't work for people who jump reds and weave through 30mph cross-traffic, but someone could maybe do a study (you'd need a way of identifying "junctions where cyclists feel safe turning right" vs unsafe though. And a lot of patience).

    Posted 11 years ago #

  24. stiltskin
    Member

    Although I sometimes do wonder if the argument we often use for poor overtakes or a wee bit of speeding could apply to us sometimes.... Is it really that important that you save 20 seconds, could you not have waited?

    I have no problem with people trying to save 20 seconds.. It's when they endanger me or someone else to do it. If people walking across the lights is dangerous, then sure, it is a reasonable complaint. I just don't think that it is dangerous in the vast majority of cases.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  25. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Kings / Home / Tarvit junction I use in both directions and if you're on the ball and know the light sequence and can anticipate the change you can get through the junction in either direction "first". However when going straight across from Tarvit Street I deliverately do through slower and in a way that would allow any bikes in the ASL to make the right turn ahead of me. In the other direction, unless a car takes a left off of Home Street on the red side of amber light, it's nearly always possible to get through ahead of cyclists coming out of Tarvit Street.

    I really hate waiting at end of Gilmore Place. The road surface is a bit rubbish and you have to pick a rather unobvious route across if you want to avoid worst of the bumps, but it's the busses turning in from Home Street and clipping the ASL box as they go that are the worst of it, only a few feet from your face even if positioned well inside the box, mean I would rather off and push. It's not about the time, it's about how safe (or otherwise) the junction is.

    I can't think of any other junctions where I would consider getting off and pushing. Apart from maybe the one on Hanover Street and George Street because of the ridiculous length of the light phases that can leave you sitting there for minutes while nothing goes anywhere in any direction.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  26. Roibeard
    Member

    I'm clearly not doing it (cycling!) right - I rarely do anything other than welcome a red light, as it allows me to (attempt to) recover my breath...

    At least on the way up to work. On the way down home, then the "red wave" is the cause of my too-regular brake pad replacement regimen...

    Robert

    Posted 11 years ago #

  27. LaidBack
    Member

    I generally don't walk over junctions...
    The odd thing though is that from a driver's perspective if I cycle (say) up the Mound and then do a left turn onto Lawnmarket I'm pushing vehicles behind me back by one vehicle length. If I just get off and walk over I've allowed another vehicle to go through the limited phase. Of course this junction has now been adjusted to have a huge 'all lights red phase' to allow traffic to continue moving on red without any green pedestrian phases lit.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  28. Iratesheep
    Member

    The only times I recall getting off the bike to skip through/past lights is with road works. So 9/10 times I take primary, and don't filter to the front, (Because when is there ever safe space for bikes? oh, right, never) but sometimes even that doesn't feel safe.

    So, if I am stuck at the back of a row of cars that I can see will be funnelled down a single carriageway, I will sometimes get off and walk along the pavement.

    The road works along the QBC spring to mind - esp getting stuck at the bottom of the slope of causewayside northbound - I just couldn't get the speed to go with the flow of traffic up hill, without either being hassled by cars behind
    or risking being stranded in the middle of the road while the light changed, so I just didn't do it.

    It was far slower than cycling, but I was still shouted at for doing it once or twice.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  29. Arellcat
    Moderator

    When discussion comes around to the calls for the dualling of the A9, 'we' often seem to feel that it's not the roads, it's the drivers.

    Yet here we are discussing one particular junction in Edinburgh which many of use on a regular basis, and every one of us has the same story: it seems to be a fundamentally bad junction. The A9 is notionally about speed. Junctions aren't about speed (unless you're into whirlpool freeflow interchanges and so on) but about safety and capacity.

    So is it the timings of the lights at the King's crossroads? Is it the positioning of the ASL reservoirs? Is it the hard-to-change topography of the area? Or is it all of the above?

    Perhaps it would benefit from a general purpose green, followed by an auxilliary green filter for Gilmore Place > Leven St, or Tarvit St > Home St. A similar arrangement is used very successfully where Craiglockhart Avenue meets Colinton Road.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  30. Uberuce
    Member

    The first few times I used that junction as a cyclist, I nearly came a cropper because I assumed that the light sequence wouldn't allow Tarvit Street's traffic forward at the same time as Gilmore Place's right-turning traffic because it's so completely and obviously Gozer-spawningly stupid to try and cross those streams.

    Posted 11 years ago #

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