CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh
"Cheaper to commute to Edinburgh than live there, new study shows"
(40 posts)-
Posted 12 years ago #
-
We've been starting to look again recently, so I find this interesting.
It's a tricky problem - for instance, I could happily live in Ratho and use the canal, but then kids at high school age would need transported across the main road all the time (or into town) so realistically we'd be setting ourselves up for future driving demands.
So then you think, OK, we could live in Balerno and the higher cost would offset against less travel (plus there's a night bus). But then again, maybe we should just buy somewhere at Fairmilehead and be in town, because I also find the main road through Balerno obnoxious.
The schools thing makes it terribly complicated. Apparently our kids will not survive unless we (pay through the nose to) live in particular areas, competing with all other current/future parents. You can at least tell when the school's good because the price of property is much higher...
Posted 12 years ago # -
Without kids if you commute by bike (like me) then it must be (unless you live somewhere very expensive (N Berwick?)).
But we have found sometimes that living outside Edinburgh is a pain (e.g. attending evening courses or going shopping). Will be much better when the Waverley line is running.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"It's a tricky problem - for instance, I could happily live in Ratho and use the canal, but then kids at high school age would need transported across the main road all the time (or into town) so realistically we'd be setting ourselves up for future driving demand"
Can the kids not make their own way to school? I lived out of town, and stopped being taken to school in P2.
Aside from kids, depends how far away you go. When I was in Livingston, the cycle commute was no problem. Slight down hill on the way in. ~50mins in and 1hr 05 - 15 on way home.
Since moving to Burntisland, I must admit I hate the commute in, involves part drive, part cycle. And my lungs don't like the lumps, may have to consider train eventually.Worth saying though, that I love where I live so the commute is worth the hassle, can't imagine living in a city, I can't get out of it quick enough when work is done.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"You can at least tell when the school's good because the price of property is much higher..."
Caution: 'Catchment areas may go up or down'!
Always controversial - but they do have to change occasionally due to school closures and new housing/population changes.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I thought this report (or certainly the segment picked out by the paper) was very simplistic.
On here, we may think of commute as being by bike (usually), but for most people in Fife (Baldcyclist, DaveC et al aside), its the car or train.
As far as I can make out, this involves a walk/drive at one end to a station, then a walk at the other end, or the nightmare of commuting across the bridge both ways by car.
All of these would (for me) add up enormously in terms of time / stress etc.
Also, there is (as Amir has noted) the amenity value of living in a large city. Its even worse for me - I would only consider moving to about 2-3 streets in my immediate vicinity - none of which I can remotely afford.
City living is not for everyone, and some of our best friends live in a remote farm above Cupar - but I rarely think living here is as simple as Housing cost v Train fare or Petrol.
Posted 12 years ago # -
<personal experience> I find it works this way: having kids curtails the frequency and/or duration of most of the activities you used to do that involved the things that cities are good at (pubs, cinemas, working stupid hours etc) so when it comes time to consider moving, you look at what you can buy in (say) Fife compared with spending similar amounts in Edinburgh. You find that you get more or spend less outside Edinburgh. You factor in commuting costs and find it's still a good deal. You think about commuting time and remember that it took 40 minutes to walk or 25 minutes to get the bus from the city centre to your flat so 60 minutes on any combination of cycling, driving, bus or train wouldn't be such a hardship. You look at secondary schools and think, (a) it's too many years away and (b) you're far enough away for them to get a bus. Easy. </personal experience>
Posted 12 years ago # -
Yes, it may be theoretically cheaper to live outside the city.
In reality it probably involves a 'I have £Xs, do I buy a modest flat in town, or a detached house out of town?', so the spend on property will be the same. Rarely do people buy something cheaper than they would have bought in town, so it probably costs more to live outside of town in reality.You can justify it by saying a house like that would have cost me £XXs in towm, but you would have never been in a position to buy a house like that in town in the first place so it is a false comparison.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"I would only consider moving to about 2-3 streets in my immediate vicinity"
Think I'm marginally more adventurous.
Have lived in 5 houses (flats) in Edinburgh, all on (or round corner from) 23 bus route - increasingly southwards!
Spread of about 3 miles.
I'm undoubtedly a city person. Have lived in five - Edinburgh best, not least because of 'country bits' within, or just outside.
We've had threads on city/outside commutes.
Obviously it's down to personal circumstances/choices and also experience (perhaps wanting a house/area like childhood - or the opposite!)
There is often an assumption that people can't 'afford' to live (buy) in Edinburgh. Actually very wide range of types/prices. Though of course that's all part of the choice of size/type/area.
I think many cyclists actually 'enjoy' the commute - it's exercise/free time.
I get the impression that 'normal' commuters (bus/train/car) completely discount travel time either in simple 'hourly rate' terms or what else they could do with it - be with friends/family or involved in other activities.
Not simple!
Posted 12 years ago # -
"You think about commuting time and remember that it took 40 minutes to walk or 25 minutes to get the bus from the city centre to your flat so 60 minutes..."
Good point, there must be plenty of people using buses/walking within Edinburgh who commute for longer than some who take the train or (depending on traffic!) drive out of town.
Something of a cost difference though.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Sure but you weigh these things up. You try to evaluate the various costs and intangibles. I suppose it doesn't become clear until you've been living it for a while and you consider whether, knowing what you now know, would you move back? Sometimes it's a pain but everywhere's a pain sometimes.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I cant really comment on the 'out of town' life, as apart from living abroad as a kid, I have always lived in edinburgh.
I do see the attraction of living outside a city, and we do go away to stay with friends/family a lot.
My wife was brought up in bridge of allan, so knows the pros/cons of village life - we did contemplate a move for a while, but discounted it, not least as property there is at least as expensive as edinburgh!
Posted 12 years ago # -
Strangely or maybe not.
The decision on where to live is similar to that on how to commute to work... Ie for me weighing up the relative costs and benefits of one mode of transport vs another.
As has been stated elsewhere, the really expensive areas of the city probably skew this significantly (a house in Barnton went on the market for £2m earlier this week). There are plenty of fairly centrally located properties at a lot less than that amount and in some places less than £100k (generally flats though).
The decision for me anyway, when we come to move will be based on the type of house we need for the next 10-20 years and in that respect location comes a distant second to price.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Perfectly possible to live on one side of Edinburgh and work on the other and for it to take you over an hour to get from A to B (each way). Spent one summer from uni living at Parent's house (Corstorphine) and working at Scottish Power (Portobello). Was a direct bus service on the 26, but it took at least 40 minutes on a good day and could take well over an hour when Princes Street was busy. Was quicker to get off at one end, walk down it, and get on another bus to Corstorphine at Haymarket.
Posted 12 years ago # -
We used to live in Easter Road and walk for an hour each way to Haymarket. I'd occatioanlly get the 22 bus in rainly or bad weather. We moved to East Anglia and I drove |35 mins each way. It was much cheeper to live in Suffolk instead of near work in Cambridge. I lived on the quiet side of Cambridgeshire. We could have afforded similar sized houses in either but Suffolk was a nice semi in a quiet area in a nice town. in camb we looked at a bank reposetion which would have needed 25K worth of repairs and we have no spare cash.
Now I live in Dalgety Bay (partly as we have freinds there). It has cheeper houses than Edinburgh, train st, bus transport every 10 mins at commuter times (an hour outside commuter times), lovely coast access with Aberdour and Burtisland nearby. The cycle in was dauntng at first but now its fine even in winter. I still only cycle 2-3 times a week, getting the bus in as its door to door and 1/2 the price of the train. The train suffers from overcrowding, delays and cancellations in winter - which the bus NEVER does unless they close the bridge, in which case I'm stuffed either way. The cycle takes the same amount of time as the bus, seriously!
Now I consider that if I lived closer to my place of work I'd cycle 5 times a week but have a mate who is moving to a job in Livingston. He lives in Whitburn and thinks he'll have to ride in a circular route to keep his miles up.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"in that respect location comes a distant second to price"
But how (much) will you factor in distance/time/cost from work?
Do you expect to be in same work place/area for all that time?
Changing jobs is always another factor - one reason why 'central belt' attracts people as they have Glasgow/Edinburgh (etc.) job options.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Of course should have realised this is a study by Bank of Scotland bean counters, so they will have taken the view that happiness and contentedness with life is directly proportional to the size of your house or the mortgage upon it.
Posted 12 years ago # -
You can at least tell when the school's good because the price of property is much higher
That equation doesn't really work for the New Town or Stockbridge, though. I'm guessing most parents in those areas send their kids to private schools or play the 'out of catchment placement request' lottery...
In reality it probably involves a 'I have £Xs, do I buy a modest flat in town, or a detached house out of town?', so the spend on property will be the same. Rarely do people buy something cheaper than they would have bought in town, so it probably costs more to live outside of town in reality.
Exactly.
I find it works this way: having kids curtails the frequency and/or duration of most of the activities you used to do that involved the things that cities are good at (pubs, cinemas, working stupid hours etc)
Also true. However I do find there are lots of great things for kids to do in Edinburgh too: museums, galleries, theatre, cinemas, visitor attractions.....not that we use them all the time, but I can imagine if we lived in (say) Fife we wouldn't use them at all.
It's really tricky. The whole school catchment thing is very difficult in this city.
Changing jobs is always another factor - one reason why 'central belt' attracts people as they have Glasgow/Edinburgh (etc.) job options.
Which is why we've stayed in Edinburgh despite work being in Tayside! On the face of it madness, but if we had moved we might be a bit stuck if anything happened to our employment...
Posted 12 years ago # -
@chdot
All fair points.
I would assume the place you want to live would drive a lot of those decisions (a prime reason in a couple of job changes has been the desire to move somewhere new!). It also depends on how 'settled' you are in a place too.
The cost factor that I always consider is the cost of a train or bus season ticket as I don't drive. I always aim to be within a short or mid-range cycle commute from work if I can manage it and the property is affordable to enable that. Failing that it would be the time and financial cost of a train/bus journey twice a day.
Posted 12 years ago # -
" ... museums, galleries, theatre, cinemas, visitor attractions. "
but Edinburgh's only half an hour away and Fife has those things too. Those things are easy enough to do when you want to. What counts more is everyday differences.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I suppose the other thing that puts me off moving somewhere smaller is that life outside the cities seems to revolve more around the car. Sure, parts of Fife are quite well connected via rail, but getting to a station can be problematic in some areas. Which means living in a town, which normally means at least some of the same issues as living in a city. Then if you are close to a station, there's the problem of getting to a supermarket (usually out of town).
I do know one person who lives car-free with two kids in Newport-on-Tay. I suppose she just gets her shopping delivered... Kids bus it to school in St Andrews. It's so rare to live car-free outside the cities though that I would worry about the reactions of neighbours. The "only gay in the village" syndrome...
Posted 12 years ago # -
WFB has related that feeling in the past.
Posted 12 years ago # -
We estimated that house prices fell by about £10,000 with each mile further we looked from the city centre. We have good bus and train connections to Edinburgh but it's perhaps a comment on what there is to do here that we use those connections a lot. We go into Edinburgh at least once a week. Coping without a car would be quite easy. We're trying to cope without Tesco for the month of October. So we've replaced walking to SuperTesco with trips to local shops on foot and by bike. It helps to live within a Mediaeval street plan though.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"I would worry about the reactions of neighbours"
Given you already live car-free this is actually slightly surprising.
We've always had it in the plan to move out of the city. Primarily because neither of us particular like city-living, and these days with home-supermarket-shopping it makes life a little easier too. And, we'd kinda like to expand beyond the raised beds and three chooks we have just now (including, possibly, goats, sheep and pigs) and unless you're Tom and Barbara that's not gonna work in the 'burbs.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Given you already live car-free this is actually slightly surprising.
I suppose the point is that although it is relatively unusual in a city like Edinburgh, there are a substantial minority who do not own a car. Not many families, granted, but enough of the population that it doesn't seem completely freakish to do without.
Public transport is often so bad outside the bigger cities that the minority who do not have a car is much, much smaller. Hence the incidence of others looking at the carless with prejudice will likely be much higher. I only have to look to some of my own relatives (quite a few live in Fife) to see evidence of this!
Posted 12 years ago # -
Interesting. Apparently when my family first moved north from Englandshire, when I was 4, to a small Aberdeenshire village, my parents did 'suffer' some prejudice, but I've no real idea what the form was (whereas kids being kids we got on with whoever, even if they spoke funny, because we haven't been taught any prejudices yet).
I hadn't really considered it in light of the choice to live car-free, but you're right, in terms of public transport and so on I'd imagine many people would see it as odd and 'limiting' when living outside the urban sprawl.
I suppose what I also meant is that I never really saw you as someone who would be bothered by curtain-twitchers and their views (and I mean this in a good way!).
Posted 12 years ago # -
Apparently when my family first moved north from Englandshire, when I was 4, to a small Aberdeenshire village, my parents did 'suffer' some prejudice, but I've no real idea what the form was
I don't have much experience of rural living in mainland Scotland, but I lived in Orkney for a number of years. The islands are different, I think: a bit more welcoming of outsiders in many ways. However there is a definite divide between 'incomers' and native Orcadians, though (usually) this is/was only politely referred to on occasion.
(whereas kids being kids we got on with whoever, even if they spoke funny, because we haven't been taught any prejudices yet).
Maybe you didn't: what about the local kids' view of you?
I recall even at primary school there were various prejudices against 'buggies' (I am not referring to baby transporters here), 'gyppos' and anyone who was very obviously poor or 'too posh' or even just not local. Then there were the kids from Asian or Afro-Caribbean familes, not very many back then. Of course most children knew they were not supposed to call others names, fight, and so on, but when has that ever stopped anyone? At secondary school, well you had the whole spectrum reflecting the adult world.
Things have changed, but I do think kids develop some prejudices quite early on, whether learned from family, media, or peers.
Edinburgh's a very international place (at least as far as Scotland goes), people (and kids) from all over the world live here without too much aggro. Further north, it's a different mix: things are changing everywhere, but maybe a bit more slowly in some places than others.
I suppose what I also meant is that I never really saw you as someone who would be bothered by curtain-twitchers and their views
In a city or large town, you can pretty much ignore them and do your own thing. Somewhere smaller or more rural, it's more difficult to do so as their influence is likely to be stronger in the community.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"Maybe you didn't: what about the local kids' view of you?"
Well given we played with them quite happily...
"Then there were the kids from Asian or Afro-Caribbean familes, not very many back then"
In the wee village of Ellon, being from Newcastle we were about as exotic as it came, until in P6 a black kid called Jade joined the school. He was only there a year, but I don't remember any bother (his parents may have had a different deal).
But yes, I think times are a little different now with kids - ah, all seemed so innocent back then.
And secondary school... Different kettle of fish. Not for me, given I'd grown up there since I was 4, I was almost a local by then. Any kids coming in from elsewhere (even if it was Peterhead or Aberdeen) were... 'different'.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Although I'm not car-free by any means, I don't get any sense that people think it's odd to make journeys by bike that most people would make by car. Nor do they think it's odd that I leave two cars sitting in the drive and use a bike instead. Admirable or brave, maybe, but the people I know tend to see car use as something they should be doing less, even if they lack the organisation, will or interest to actually do it. They tend to see it as something good for the kids or good for my health rather than a freakish choice of transport.
Villages, especially those within reasonable distance of Edinburgh or Glasgow, have too many commuters and too much population turnover to fully conform to the stereotypes.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"Villages, especially those within reasonable distance of Edinburgh or Glasgow, have too many commuters and too much population turnover..."
Slightly off topic, Tom mentioned something about cycling to local shops rather than taking car to.
Since moving to Fife, I sometimes wonder how much I actually contribute to the local economy, and do I really make a difference to it? Fife (a little like some bits of East Lothian) has a lot of deprivation, but also a lot of wealth.
It's full of wealthy commuters who live in the affluent and pretty coastal towns who essentially just ferry themselves in and out of Edinburgh, but then go inland and you find sprawling housing schemes with lots of deprivation, and little prospect for those that live in them.
Never noticed this when living in West Lothian, maybe there was less of a contrast, don't know.
Must admit, I have tried to spend my money in Fife since moving, but not really sure of how successful I have been, or how to even measure that?
Posted 12 years ago #
Reply »
You must log in to post.
posts
