I'd be interested to see how many cycle paths make a profit.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh
Tram latest
(2182 posts)-
Posted 10 years ago #
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It's not really as simple as saying that the tram isn't a failure because it has displaced car use, unless we want to be insanely blind to the costs. As much as building thirty new secondary schools..!
For my part, I think it verges on criminal incompetence to have spent the money that has been spent for so little benefit.
If you just took £1000m and distributed it to people who left their cars at home it would potentially have been more worthwhile :)
Posted 10 years ago # -
The tram was a good idea, very poorly executed (largely on account of some of the more bizarre ways in which local and central government interact in this country from what I've heard). Still, they've sunk the cost on the most expensive stuff (depot, trams, power) and have lots of track and associated kit sitting around somewhere doing nothing, so the incremental cost of extensions will be lower. They might as well use it to get it down to Leith and the waterfront where it might actually make a difference and make the tram as a whole something worth having.
By the time they even get round to planning to use the NEPN, we'll be enjoying all that segregated infrastructure as set out in the SG's 2030 Vision anyway...
Posted 10 years ago # -
That post was a good idea, very poorly executed - DOUBLE POST!
Posted 10 years ago # -
It's inevitable that NEPN will go, I think. An existing heavy rail bed just sitting there waiting for the track to be slapped down - why wouldn't you? They even have the first half of the curve to take the track up there at the Haymarket end all poured in.
Strictly with my non-cycling hat on, I'd have thought it might even make sense to take the trams right the way down to the government buildings and shore, to directly join with leith walk whenever it's put in. Surely it couldn't cost all that much?
Posted 10 years ago # -
Leith walk is logical extension as goes where people want to go and also to high density population. If the Granton developments take off big style then maybe NEPN. They are building estates towards barnton that will require a new school (not heard of new school needed at Granton?) barnton estate could have a wee spur down to ingilston?
Was on the NEPN Today, will be on it tomorow we must chain ourselves to railings to stop the NEPN being taken over by the tram.
Posted 10 years ago # -
If the NEPN becomes the tram route plus shoehorned-in shared path, it will be a bad day for cycling in Edinburgh.
Many moons ago, having been studying the tram schematics and talking to the bods at TiE, I wrote:
The anticipated width of the pedestrian/cycle lane alongside the dualled tram line is between 1.95m and 3.0m. This is roughly equivalent to the Union canal path.
More recently, I took my tape measure to various places in Edinburgh:
Stenhouse/Balgreen path – 2.7 metres usable width
(allowing for streetlights, etc.)Middle Meadow Walk cycle lane – 2.3 metres
George Street cycle lanes – 2.3 metres total width
George Street cycle lanes – 1.1 metres per laneWaverley north ramp footway – 1.95 metres max
Waverley north ramp footway – 1.45 metres min between bollardsConsider a NEPN with, at its narrowings, as much space for cycling and walking as the Waverley footway. When I remember, I'll measure at various points along the Union Canal towing path too, including under the bridges.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Yes.
The tram will displace people from their cars by not displacing cars but displacing cyclists and walkers instead.
Genius.
Posted 10 years ago # -
we must chain ourselves to railings to stop the NEPN being taken over by the tram
I'll be there with you.
I am pro trams going on the roads, just not on existing perfectly decent cycle infrastructure.
Posted 10 years ago # -
People who walk up NEPN might well take the tram instead (although if you're not going too far, for £3 I would probably drive instead).
However I really can't imagine many who currently cycle on NEPN being able to change to the tram. I'd be driving to work, until I found a new job. Maybury, A90, Ferry Rd etc doesn't appeal and going though the town would be agonising. I'm not going to cycle to Haymarket and then get a tram half way to work, then walk/bus from there either.
We are only a small minority though. 500,000 journeys a month on the tram already. Doubt there are 500,000 journeys on NEPN.
Posted 10 years ago # -
City's best path (?) over the Meadows can sometimes get over 2000 a day.
So if we're generous let's say 14,000 a week. Could say 56,000 a month on this prime route. NEPN might be less?
Posted 10 years ago # -
Saw another cyclist crash at speed at Haymarket yesterday. Holes in clothing and bruising. As an extremely rough calculation I think my observations indicate an ongoing rate of about one cyclist crash every 2 days. Very very rough, but no more so than your average risk assessment.
(Based on: 2 crashes seen personally in 6 months, ignoring the regular crashes I saw initially, 4 minutes observation per day, 5 days a week of observation, 6 months of use, if cyclists use the junction for two hours per day at a steady rate, 7 days per week).
Posted 9 years ago # -
Is anyone (CEC?) still capturing the haymarket crash data?
And if so, to what end - i.e. is it merely window dressing?
Posted 9 years ago # -
Going to be treacherous in the ice. Glad I don't go that way anymore.
I do cross the tram tracks in two stages coming down from St andrews sq to princes street. Would not work if tram was there as I go right over to the south side of the track heading east thus leaving me only the west track to cross when going right down to waverley.
The contractors who have knocked the building down in St andrews sq have made this potentially dangerous by hosing quantities of water down the road. Hopefully they will desist before we get a frost.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Just a reminder -
"
The St James Quarter at the east end of Princes Street is set to be transformed by a £850m commercial development.
This is thanks to an innovative funding agreement between the City of Edinburgh Council, Scottish Government and TIAA Henderson Real Estate (TH Real Estate).
The £61m required to improve local infrastructure and public space in the area for this major regeneration scheme will be facilitated by the City of Edinburgh Council through a new funding model, announced by the Council and Scottish Government today.
Referred to as the ‘Regeneration Accelerator Model’ (RAM), the mechanism will enable a combination of public and private sector investment in local infrastructure and public space that can then be offset by business rates and overall gains to the economy.
The proposed public sector support will unlock the development, which has outline planning permission for high-quality retail space, grade A office space, a five-star hotel, a four-star hotel, an apart-hotel, a digital theatre, restaurants and residential units.
http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/news/article/1526/council_joins_forces_with_scottish_government
Development discussed here -
http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12696
So this development, which is being 'helped' by public money, is 'generously' offering money to move the tram stop north (maybe as far as McDonald Road).
Implications for the 'cycle infrastructure' on the top end of Leith Walk are far from clear.
The development currently is 'planned' to have a considerable amount of parking - so much for rational, integrated, transport policies and priorities for #ActiveTravel.
Posted 9 years ago # -
@ Nelly - Spokes is keeping a record of tram crashes. We can at least put some pressure on the council in their next round of installations.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Saw someone take a tumble on the lines eastbound at Haymarket this morning. They got up very quickly and carried on, so hopefully ok.
Posted 9 years ago # -
My attempt, on Saturday, to buy an all day bus/tram pass with airport access from the driver of the 38 bus was almost foiled when he told me he didn't sell such a ticket.
Fortunately I was able to point to the option on his screen, although I hadn't by that stage dropped my handful of pound coins into the slot.
11 tram trips and three bus journies in one day. £9 well spent.Posted 9 years ago # -
I very rarely cycle near Haymarket so I can't comment from experience but it strikes me that there are many cities that have lots of tram lines and lots of cyclists - and many of them share the damp, cold winters that we do. Are cyclists slipping on tram tracks all over Amsterdam or Gothenburg or Oslo?
Posted 9 years ago # -
@AKen I think Edinburgh has outdone itself on the shallowness of the angle at which cyclists are obliged to cross the tram tracks. I don't think other self-respecting European cities route their bikes across tram tracks at angles under 60 degrees.
Posted 9 years ago # -
@kaputnik & AKen, I think they normally avoid forcing you over tram tracks at any angle while dodging "bullets" from passing drivers.
Posted 9 years ago # -
It might not have escaped notice that we have now had the 4th PCV-Tram crash, identical, right down to the same bus service (X38) and practically same location between Palmerston Place and Morar Place, and at same time of day.
Go to that place and look - and you'll see that EVERY bus and taxi driver moves to the right and on to the tram track .... because the bus taxi & cycle lane continues to the East of the Morar Place traffic signals on the same track as the tram line. The theory is that the traffic signals separate the tram and motor traffic by time and this conflict should not happen, but my hunch is that the congestion in the mornings plays a part in putting the bus driver in a position where they are focussed on the queue of traffic ahead, and the tram gets a green light before the bus clears the road ahead.
The City and operator know the road layout delivers the conflict and have done some tweaking, but ... rather like the flawed detail for cycles at Haymarket it has been built that way and now we have to work a way out of the problem.
One ray of sunshine comes from discussing the high quality which the Manchester on street track is being built to - I hope to take a look at this tomorrow. Apparently they have a special trolley with grinding heads that trims any high spots from the concrete either side of the rails to deliver a flush to minus 2 mm level or the steel rail-head relative to the concrete of the 'road' surfaces. Those observing the track in Edinburgh will probably realise that this is dramatically better than what seems to be in place on the tracks here.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Alan Taylor has quite a pro-trams thing in today's The National
Posted 9 years ago # -
"
THE chairman of the Edinburgh tram inquiry said he wants to hear about the impact of the project on people’s lives as his team sifts through more than two million documents about the transport fiasco.
However Lord Hardie – who was appointed six months ago – said he did not want submissions until he determines key areas for investigation.
"
http://m.scotsman.com/news/transport/edinburgh-trams-how-was-it-for-you-asks-inquiry-1-3631272
Posted 9 years ago # -
I've started getting the tram home in the evening. Trams into town are usually packed.
Posted 9 years ago # -
That EEN article mentions the mysterious "reckless cyclist" who caused the bus/tram crash in August. Was this ever verified?
Posted 9 years ago #
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