Taking primary position to the next level. « CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum

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Taking primary position to the next level.

(28 posts)

Started 12 years ago by ARobComp
Latest reply from Wilmington's Cow
This topic is not resolved

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ARobComp
Member

Today I was cycling up lothian road from the west end traffic lights.

There was a woman cycling in a manner that disturbed me as I felt that she was endangering herself and needlessly annoying drivers. However I'm not sure that EVERYTHING she did was wrong. However I feel the way she did it was wrong. I politely indicated that she'd been a bit silly (AND that she needed a back light!!!) but she seemed to think it was the ONLY way that she could go where she wanted (right at the junction towards fountainbridge at the cinema)

Let me describe it:
1) she went through the traffic lights at castle terrace entrance with the traffic but moved to the far right of the lane. (I thought she might be going right on the western approach?)
2) Traffic was moving slowly through the "straight ahead" filter so she cruised (slowly) up the right hand filter lane and around the wrong side of the island to get ahead (I know this is wrong as it's obvious)
3) She then was trapped the wrong side of the traffic as it went up lothian road, all the way up to the junction with morrison street/bread street. Traffic was moving slow but they would not have expected a cyclist to be on that side - note there was TONNES of space on the left and me and another cyclist were easily keeping pace meaning drivers were between 2 riders, one on the central dotted line.
4) she continued accross those lights (on green) and stayed right all the way to the right turn.

This is where I shouted politely that I didn't think she should ride all the way up the hill like that. She said "No one ever lets me across so I have to" I pointed out (or tried to - I was a bit confused that she couldn't filter at any point in 500metres) that she was likely to be hit by a car or put other cyclists on the other side in danger.

However I'm not sure what else she can do - although that junction is always on red so I'd cycle up to it and move accross in the ASL worst case scenario.

So was I right? Was she right at all? What does the highway code say?

At least she didn't have a rear light so I won on that side of things.....

Posted 12 years ago #
Min
Member

I don't move across that early but I do it before the previous set of lights since, as the woman said, you can't get across three/four lanes of aggressive traffic otherwise.

Posted 12 years ago #
steveo
Member

Toughie, if she has experience of getting stuck there then she's probably right...

However I do the same manoeuvre a few times a month and I've never once found myself stuck usually moving to the right lane after the Morrison street lights and folk behind me be dammed... The right turn to fountain bridge is invariably red.

Posted 12 years ago #
Dave
Member

With the exception of weirdly going on the wrong side of traffic islands (!) I often ride for long periods of time on the offside of traffic. It is where motorcyclists and scooters (and many bikes) go, and the HC advises people to look.

You often have better visibility and manouverability (admittedly, not so much when the alternative is a bus lane).

That said, I don't ride on the right of traffic that is going faster than me for extended periods, unless I'm heading for a filter lane. It's not clear which it is from the description.

The thing that gives me the heebies sometimes is people riding on the lane markings, thus encouraging taxis to undertake them while the traffic moves past to their right - get in one lane or the other for your own comfort!

Posted 12 years ago #
cc
Member

She wants to turn right from Lothian Road into Fountainbridge, have I got it right?
I think I'd devise another route entirely, frankly, one that didn't involve either of those roads.
But if I had to go there for some reason, and found it difficult or scary to cross the lanes near the junction, I'd consider walking across Lothian Road on a pedestrian crossing instead, or I might try turning left into Bread Street and circling round to the right to join Fountainbridge before Lothian Road.

Posted 12 years ago #
wingpig
Member

If I was so nervous about moving across a couple of lanes (and these particular lanes tend not to be particularly fast when they're particularly busy) I'd pull over to the left and dismount until the lights went red then walk across to the right-hand-side of the ASL when the crosswise traffic had green, though one might as well then walk across the entire road and re-mount on Fountainbridge, or walk onto the ASL from East Fountainbridge.

Posted 12 years ago #
Lezzles
Member

I truly hate this section of road. Its really not fun to try and get into the right lane on this road. I generally only bother trying to turn right into Fountainbridge on a Saturday. On a weekday when traffic is heavier I prefer to head on up to Tollcross and then either take a right down West Tollcross (past Lava and Ignite) or go even further onto Gilmore Place. If you're heading to the canal its barely any further but saves you fighting to cross the three lanes of traffic.

Posted 12 years ago #
ARobComp
Member

Ok I think it may have been ok if she was moving faster than traffic and in an outside lane, as dave said, however I can't shake the feeling that while I was watching her ride I had a horrible feeling in my stomach that if I was in her position I would have been in the wrong place completely and in danger.

Thanks for the comments!

Posted 12 years ago #
PS
Member

I'd happily ride in primary in the right hand lane if I was going at the same speed as the rest of the traffic. I'd be wary of going too far to the right as that would encourage a squeezed undertake...

Was she holding folk up as she cycled?

Posted 12 years ago #
ARobComp
Member

Yeah she was definitely not fast enough to be ahead of people at filters and was ducking in and out of a few cars. problem was there was some taxi's doing illegal U-turns which didn't help matters.

Again as a city cyclist of 7 years and counting, all I can say is that I felt physically uncomfortable watching her riding and positioning. I rode that way again tonight to see if I could find her again but didn't see anything (apart from the BONKERS traffic - seriously why do people do it to themselves) .

Posted 12 years ago #
Dave
Member

I used to ride up Lothian Rd every day (as part of my commute between South Central and Dunfermline) and didn't think it was too bad, but I never tried to turn right, as I was heading for the Meadows.

It's hard to comment really without seeing first hand. It's obviously subjectively less dangerous than riding up on the left and then trying to turn, otherwise she wouldn't do it even when hassled by other cyclists. Subjectivity != objectivity obv.

Posted 12 years ago #
gembo
Member

She needs to change her route as it is not working. As previously suggested by cc and wing pig. She could stop at the bank of Scotland before tollcross and walk back to the junction which Has a green man for a very long time to allow pedestrians across the road perpendicular to Lothian road. This would allow time to get positioned at the head of the traffic for the green light for traffic which comes shortly after the pedestrian green man goes off.

She has thought about how to make the junction work for her but not come to the right conclusion.

You are always vulnerable on the right hand side of fast moving traffic. Going the wrong way round an island should be a clue about the wrongness of a route. Sandy Cassar won a stage in the tour by doing it a couple of years back. So even on the tour people tend to obey islands though you do see lovely splits the right and wrong side of roundabouts

Posted 12 years ago #
Claggy Cog
Member

There is allegedly a path that leads from behind the Caledonian Hotel ?Rutland Street, Rutland Sq and then onto the Anderson Strathern building and looking at the map there does seem to be some sort of path possibly over the WAR on some sort of bridge/underpass (difficult to tell on the map) to Canning Street. I am assured that you can get to Loudens this way from the west end somehow. Need to check this possibility out.

http://goo.gl/maps/wxVIM

Posted 12 years ago #
chdot
Admin

Yes

http://edinburgh.cyclestreets.net/journey/#6539179

Will be full of pedestrians at 'rush' hour.

Posted 12 years ago #
kaputnik
Moderator

if she was trying to follow the route as I imagine it in my head, it would have made more sense to go up Castle Terrace and then straight across Lothian Road at Bank of Scotland from (i think) Reigo Street

Posted 12 years ago #
cc
Member

It's the footbridge over the WAR.

It's not very wide. Still an attractive alternative to Lothian Road perhaps :-)

If it was me I'd probably turn left off Lothian Road and head up Castle Terrace towards East Fountainbridge and head west from there, kind of like this.

Posted 12 years ago #
Cyclingmollie
Member

I've ridden that way a few times going from Princes Street to Central Halls. It's not too bad but I think the key is good long backward looks to negotiate joining the outer lanes with the drivers. You only need one sympathetic soul per lane change. But it certainly feels an intimidating road.

Posted 12 years ago #
ARobComp
Member

Aye I think Tom may be right. I don't think I'd have had an issue moving across but from an unconfident wobbly low distance cyclist (she was dressed kinda weird and had front light on her clothing and no rear light) it might be a lot harder.

Posted 12 years ago #
SRD
Moderator

Wrong route. We do Castle Terrace to Fountianbridge regularly post Farmer's market and Mr SRD used to use it as route home from Waverly.

You want to go along castle terrace to bread street (why is the cycle contraflow not better signed?), then onto Bread street. The bread st exit to Lothian road is easy - turn arrow - and you can easily get into left turn lane for Fountain bridge with no hassle at all.

Posted 12 years ago #
kaputnik
Moderator

Yes the route CC and SRD describe is the less-hostile alternative I had in mind.

Posted 12 years ago #
Wilmington's Cow
Member

"You want to go along castle terrace to bread street (why is the cycle contraflow not better signed?), then onto Bread street. The bread st exit to Lothian road is easy - turn arrow - and you can easily get into left turn lane for Fountain bridge with no hassle at all."

I use the Bread Street counter every weekday, have posted here about it being a great little-known route, though 'no hassle', when used 5/7ths of the week... I've had a driver swerve into the lane and play 'chicken' because he clearly thought I was riding the wrong way down a one way street!

The left turn at the end onto Lothian Road is a doddle as it's traffic-lit, though if it's green a little while before you get to it then the pedestrians crossing from the Morrison Street side will be there to weave through as (understandably to be honest) they don't realise that the Bread Street crossing is a red man.

Thing is, the cyclist clearly doesn't realise she's using the 'wrong route' - big question is how to educate!

Posted 12 years ago #
Wilmington's Cow
Member

Bread Street chicken

Posted 12 years ago #
SRD
Moderator

@wc. Don't think I had known the names of the streets previously, so hadn't fully appreciated your previous account.

To be honest, I've not had problems with the bread st lane proper, but with the access to it from castle terrace/spittal st. That's the but that needs signage in my account.

Posted 12 years ago #
cc
Member

I'm not sure I see the point of the Bread Street contraflow cycle lane. Wouldn't it be less dodgy to turn left out of Spittal St and go round the U-turn into East Fountainbridge instead?

Posted 12 years ago #
kaputnik
Moderator

I'm not sure I see the point of the Bread Street contraflow cycle lane

Think it's an abandoned bus lane?

Posted 12 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"abandoned"

Presume 2 used to go both ways on Bread Street. Don't know when it stopped going west.

http://lothianbuses.com/assets/files/121028_CityCentre.pdf

Posted 12 years ago #
wingpig
Member

"Wouldn't it be less dodgy to turn left out of Spittal St and go round the U-turn into East Fountainbridge instead?"

Nup. Vehicles approaching from Morrison Street going up Bread Street often treat the Spittal Street build-out as a cyclist, speeding up to pass it then cutting in to the left immediately afterwards if heading through to the West Port.

Posted 12 years ago #
Wilmington's Cow
Member

"I'm not sure I see the point of the Bread Street contraflow cycle lane. Wouldn't it be less dodgy to turn left out of Spittal St and go round the U-turn into East Fountainbridge instead?"

The main reason I don't take that route, and use the contraflow instead, is that I need to be in the right hand lane on East Fountainbridge. I'll happily take primary in that lane, but can feel tension behind me (even if the lights ahead are red and there's a queue). The contraflow I know I'm going to get to myself - it has its own annoyances (see above) but there's an indefinable something that makes it a more appealing route (for me, I know other people who are much happier using the U-turn, personal preference is a wondrous thing).

Posted 12 years ago #

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Taking primary position to the next level.

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