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not resolvedAs part of the QBC and the KB redevelopment, there is a new toucan crossing at the Mayfield Road/ W Mains Road crossing.
I was wondering whether, for example, a cyclist going along Mayfield Road going southwards is permitted to cross on the toucan green from the advanced stop line.
Anyone else think that toucan crossings need little wee 'bike' signs on the tarmac 'reminding' drivers that they _are_ toucan crossings?
When I suggested they put in a toucan crossing at the Mayfield Road/ W Mains Road crossing, at the consultation on the QBC, that was what I had in mind.
This is effectively the way these things work on the continent, with their scramble crossings, where cyclist and pedestrians all cross at once in all directions. The difference being there would be a separated lane on the approach and the cyclist would stop and wait on the motor phase. Also the phases would favour the cycle/pedestrian traffic over the motor.
Just for clarity, I suggested at the consultation that there be a toucan crossing at that junction, but I make no claims that they followed my advice. I suggested other changes to the plans at the same consultation which were completely ignored.
So to clarify: is it unclear?
@Amir - I think the solid stop line means stop.
Traffic stopping at the stop line has to wait until they have a green - the green cycle signals are not for traffic waiting at the stop lines, any more than the green man is for traffic on the main carriageway.
Thus the way to ride it is to bypass the stop line, by joining the shared path, then proceeding with the green cycle. I've seen Dutch footage of cycle routes bypassing the stop line and associated red light in just this manner.
However, I wouldn't actually cross the stop line on red, as that would be an RLJ...
Robert
Don't know the place, but makes me wonder why they didn't put in a ramp like at bruntsfield place to access leamington walk.
I always hop off and transform myself briefly into a pedestrian in these circumstances. I imagine that's even more irritating to drivers than RLJ-ing but strictly speaking entirely legal...
"I imagine that's even more irritating to drivers than RLJ-ing but strictly speaking entirely legal..."
technically... No it's not (legal, that is, it's definitely irritating to drivers, certainly the likes of EEN commenters). If you're pushing a bike in the road then you're subject to the same laws as if riding it when it comes to a stop line.
However, you are legally entitled to take it onto the pavement once dismounted, and thereafter walk across the road.
It's a bizarre quirk, which I looked up ages and ages ago and could probably find the relevant bits of the statutes again.
p.s. of course Morningsider will be along shortly to explain why I'm so wrong.... :P
Ah, just seen that this is about Toucan Crossings (the title should really have given it away). Ignore everything I've said!
Curious - I never knew that! Presumably if I was a pedestrian who happened to be standing in the road without a bike, I could perfectly legally step over the stop line when the light was red? I thought that once you'd got off your bike and started pushing it you were a pedestrian with all the freedom that that entailed. How about a folded Brompton carried over the stop line (assuming a very long light cycle)? Or a partially folded Brompton? How folded would it have to be for me to stop being a cyclist and start being a pedestrian?
Here's a question. What if you are on the road and want to turn onto the cycle path where there is a Toucan crossing. It's easy enough turning off to the left, but if you're making a right turn, you have to go across traffic.
What happens if you come to a toucan crossing at the red phase for cars and turn off onto the path across the toucan (which is on green). This means you've gone through the red light for cars. Is that an offence? How else are you meant to get across, beyond pulling off to the left side, performing an 180 degree turn and then waiting for the next green crossing phase (like we're going to do that).
There's nothing wrong with riding off a Toucan crossing onto the road, but what about riding onto one from the road?
There is a case (Selby v. DPP) that established that someone pushing a bike is a foot passenger, but that was in terms of therefore being allowed to use a footpath (or in that case a pedestrian crossing - a driver hit the cyclist who was pushing a bike then tried to mount a defence that she was a cyclist and so shouldn't be on the crossing - presumably the driver made a habit of simply driving over people he thought shouldn't be where they were).
I'm 99% certain there is a difference, however, if a cyclist is pushing a bike in the road and comes to a stop line.
Going to have to find this now!
WC - I reckon it is down to the definition of "propelling a vehicle" in S36 of the Road Traffic Act 1988. You must comply with road signs if you are driving or propelling a vehicle. I reckon this could mean you have to comply with traffic signs when pushing a bike along a road.
Right. And PC Copper is really going to bother climbing out the cosy panda car just to fine you for crossing a stop line while pushing your bike on foot.....not.
Agh! Morningsider beat me to it!
Yep, s.36 of the RTA '88, must comply with traffic signs etc. if 'propelling'. That may be woolly, but if you look at s.129 of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1988 that also has 'propel' a vehicle along a path, but then specifically says this doesn't apply with a bike unless it's being 'ridden', which suggests 'propel' includes pushing a bike.
Clear as mud?
So a cyclist coasting down hill is not propelling a vehicle and therefore exempt?
(just playing devils advocate now)
"Right. And PC Copper is really going to bother climbing out the cosy panda car just to fine you for crossing a stop line while pushing your bike on foot.....not."
You'd need a VERY bored cop, but the chat on the law was simply in response to, "... strictly speaking entirely legal...[/i]"
Put it this way, it would be a bored cop who would get out of his Panda to speak to someone who was on his mobile in his car at red traffic lights, but if that driver was to say, "... strictly speaking it's entirely legal because I'm stopped...." we'd seek to clarify that there was a misapprehension there surely?
"So a cyclist coasting down hill is not propelling a vehicle and therefore exempt?
(just playing devils advocate now)"
You'd simply prosecute gravity... Actually, yes, by a strict interpretation, otherwise a driver could stick a car into neutral and claim he wasn't propelling it.
kaputnik : "What if you are on the road and want to turn onto the cycle path where there is a Toucan crossing. It's easy enough turning off to the left, but if you're making a right turn, you have to go across traffic."
I quite often head north on Whitehouse Loan and turn right onto the Bruntsfield Links path.
There doesn't seem to be a right way to do it.
Usually the lights on the road are at green so I just turn right onto the path; but that means that once across the centre line of the road I'm crossing against the red of the Toucan.
Otherwise the lights on the road are at red which means crossing through those.
As kaputnik says I'm damned if I'm going to pull off to the left then cross properly at the Toucan.
In reality I've never once felt that I've got in any one else's way here by simply turning right.
"... strictly speaking it's entirely legal because I'm stopped...."
Nah, you can't have the engine running either.
The reason I ask is that an old biddy had a moan at me when I performed the above described maneouvre to get from Meadowplace Road to South Gyle Road this lunchtime, by riding off the road onto the crossing (the alternative is to go 50m further up the road, turn right, turn right again, go back down the same 50m and then turn left to get to the same place).
"Did you not see the red?" moans she, waving her stick at me. I politely pointed out it was a toucan crossing and cyclists are allowed to use them, but then had a thought that perhaps I had infirnged because I had ridden onto the crossing from the road. I then decided I hadn't actually gone through the red, as the traffic was stopped already as I approached the crossing, I pulled into the oncoming lane and mounted the pavement on the dropped kerb BEFORE I had passed any stop lines.
I was also miffed that at the time I was mounting kerb on one side, she was only just stepping off the pavement from the other side, so there had at no time been even a slight chance we may have come to blows. She was just having a moan. Will probably be on the neighbourhood policing team at the next meeting to get signs put up telling us cycling isn't welcome round these parts.
Anyway, I probably am guilty of some heinous crime of trying to get where I'm going using what passes for infrastructure round these parts.
"Nah, you can't have the engine running either."
That was kind of my point.... ;)
The lady complaining at you will be on the front of the EEN talking about how you almost killed her. Mark my words.
It really irks me when you're trying your damndest to use the thing in the most civil, considerate manner as possible that someone decides to have a go. But then again, there's no pleasing some people.
cb - toucan crossings are only advisory, you can legally cross the road when they are at red.
@WC As a cyclocrosser, I'd have thought you'd just pop the bike on your shoulder and run across the crossing? No propelling in that scenario, presumably?
Certainly good for Belgian dismount practice...
I've had a bus driver indicate with his hands that he was not happy with me when I was using a toucan crossing. So I thought I'd describe what I do on a daily basis on my commute home, to see what others think.
The toucan crossing I'm discussing here is the one crossing over Lindsay Road, close to Hawthornvale, but it is relevant to all toucan crossings.
So what I do is I come along the cul-de-sac road from Ocean Terminal towards ASDA (not sure what the road is called, tbh, and not as far as ASDA, about half way to it from OT), and I go up the steep pavement to get to the toucan crossing. From there, I press the button and wait for the green man / bike. When they appear, I cross over, but before I mount the pavement on the other side, I instead turn right, travel down the hill on the road, and turn left into Hawthornvale as I am aiming to join the NEPN.
As I say, a bus driver was clearly not too happy with me doing this for some reason, but I don't see what I'm doing wrong. That toucan crossing appears to be there specifically to join up the safe(r) cycle routes, so I figure I'm actually using the infrastructure correctly?
I do the same most days at Melville Drive. Always feel like drivers are giving me evil look.
You aren't doing anything wrong....refer him to the Niceway Code
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