CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Argyle Place / Melville Drive Junction redesign

(30 posts)

  1. cb
    Member

    From Cameron Rose's blog:

    http://cameronrose.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/argyle-place-junction-reworking.html

    "February is the planned date for work to change the layout of the Argyle Place/Melville Drive junction."

    Cameron says he doesn't have the "new plans to hand" (don't know if that means that he does have access to them) but he does specifically mention that the plans include:

    "widening of the off road pedestrian cycle path to the west of Argyle Place to Meadow Place"

    Does anyone have details of what is planned here?

    Posted 12 years ago #

  2. cc
    Member

    Interesting, thanks.

    A web search throws up 2012-to-2015-Cycle-Capital-Budget1.doc from the Spokes web site, but that doesn't give any further details. It does have some tantalising mentions of other projects though such as Middle Meadow Walk public cycle counter and West Approach (EICC) Cycle access and possible cycle lane(s). I can't see anything about this on the council web site.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  3. Arellcat
    Moderator

    I can't see anything about this on the council web site.

    Neither can I. I've been trawling through the planning applications as far back as 1990 and can't find anything related to the junction.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  4. kaputnik
    Moderator

    I'm assuming that they've finally cottoned on that the existing layout is not that friendly to neither drivers, cyclists OR pedestrians! Downright barmy and confusing - with dropped kerbs where they shouldn't be and also no dropped kerbs where there should be. Perhaps they're going to make it more so?

    Posted 12 years ago #

  5. SRD
    Moderator

    and the angles on the turns are downright unfriendly too, especially on a slightly longer than normal bike.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  6. mgj
    Member

    And the drain with it's holes exactly where a narrow tyre would go. I suspect they will remove the left turn at the foot of Argyle Place as they did the right turn at the foot of Marchmont Road, because they havent had enough complaints about what a stupid idea that was.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  7. Dave
    Member

    As a long-term (now ex-)Marchmont resident, regular driver through the Meadows and (of course) cyclist, I can't find it in my heart to say that the closure of Meadow Place was anything other than genius.

    Sure, it would be nice if the resulting plaza could be used for something like a market from time-to-time instead of a repository for motors, but you can't have everything.

    Aligning MMW with Argyle would be ideal, as many (perhaps not most, but loads) of riders I see just cut out the island altogether and ride from MMW onto the street. Drivers assume they have a clear path to turn right, and I did once have to scold a rider who pulled out in front of me (from the island) without looking left, but other than that it's a clear winner.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  8. kaputnik
    Moderator

    If I'm coming off MMW to go up Argyle Place, I avoid the island and go straight up the road. If I'm coming from direction of Leamington Walk to go onto Argyle Place then I go onto Argyle Park - specifically to avoid the island.

    The left-turn filter lane doesn't work for cyclists if it gets a car on it that can't advance onto Melville Drive, it's too narrow to filter with safety, especially with that pothole at the bottom where the road is collapsing around the drain (Clarenced, not fixed)

    I think the only time I use the island as the designer (sic) intended is to go downhill from Argyle Place onto MMW, and for this a simple toucan junction with a protected filter lane into it would most likely do the trick.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  9. SRD
    Moderator

    If the left filter was just for bikes, it would be a lot better.

    That would also leave room for a much wider turning angle from the offroad path (continuation of Leamington walk), onto the cyclelane bit which aims at MMW - at present it is too acute/narrow for my bike even at very slow speeds.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  10. wingpig
    Member

    I only worked out the apparent intended function of the mystery island earlier this year when I was heading south out of MMW onto Argyle Place and there was a car heading out of Argyle Place turning right, when the usual just-head-to-Argyle-Place action would have resulted in potential resource conflict, avoided by going through the mid-island channel.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  11. Roibeard
    Member

    In the southbound direction, the "keep left" bollard doesn't help matters, as that directs one on to Argyle Place instead of through the island...

    Robert

    Posted 12 years ago #

  12. chdot
    Admin

    Good news -

    February

    Less good news -

    "

    The improvements which will take place at the junction are relatively minor, in that no full junction redesign is proposed. This was originally considered but the costs of a complete junction revamp were extremely high, so this will not be taken forward at present. For pedestrians, a raised table crossing will be provided over the left turn lane, and other crossing points around the junction will be upgraded with new dropped kerbs and tactile paving. The cycle area at the junction will be resurfaced and access to this area will be improved, particularly for eastbound cyclists. Improvements to the cycle detection at the junction will also be carried out.

    Consideration was also given to removal of the left-turn lane from Argyle Place onto Melville Drive, however this would have resulted in the need to reduce the crossing time for pedestrians and cyclists. As such, a decision was taken to retain the left-turn facility to ensure maximum crossing time for pedestrians and cyclists to/from Middle Meadow Walk.
    "

    Probably good news-

    "
    With regards South Meadow Walk, this will be fully resurfaced and widened by an additional metre. The path will also be segregated by white line marking, with cyclists accommodated on the north side of the path.

    "

    Posted 12 years ago #

  13. SRD
    Moderator

    is there a legend attached?

    hot pink bits = ?
    green hatched/chequerboard bits = ?

    Posted 12 years ago #

  14. SRD
    Moderator

    Despite what I said above, the left turn lane is not so bad for cars coming down argyle place, where it is usually very clear that they're heading for it, even if they don't indicate. the real problem is cars coming along fingal place, which often dart down that way with little warning and/or causing uncertainty for peds and cyclists as to which way they are going.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  15. SRD
    Moderator

    More info from council here, with full plan available for download as pdf.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  16. SRD
    Moderator

    ACtually, all things considered, this looks pretty good. Should eliminate some of the unnecessary conflict.

    I do slightly regret South Meadow Walk being divided though - I';ve always found cyclists take better care going along there.

    My big question is: will SMW now also be priority 1 for gritting? It will link up Leamington walk and MMW which are both priority 1, and it is at present an obvious weak link, except where the dental practice spreads grit from the grit box.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  17. chdot
    Admin

    "is there a legend attached?"

    Yes it's on the PDF (which I haven't uploaded yet).

    Detail mostly in text above -

    "
    For pedestrians, a raised table crossing will be provided over the left turn lane, and other crossing points around the junction will be upgraded with new dropped kerbs and tactile paving.

    "

    Pink bits were confusing me. Though it meant they were making opening bigger, but they are just moving it north to add a pedestrian bit.

    So it's still a sharp left turn with (potentially) a bus behind you. Not sure if this even counts as incremental improvement.

    "
    the costs of a complete junction revamp were extremely high

    "

    More than the price of bringing the TdF for a couple of days?

    Sorry

    Different budget

    Economic benefit

    Posted 12 years ago #

  18. mgj
    Member

    OK, they are officially morons. Cyclists on the North side of the path, ie the other side from where there are markings at the moment, and not the same as Leamington Walk. Where will the crossover be? Absolutely clueless, and a scandalous waste of cycling funding

    Posted 12 years ago #

  19. SRD
    Moderator

    what??? I too read the pink bits as widened, and hence removing ped conflict. ARGH. I take back what i said above.

    Also agree mgj with putting cyclists on north. from map it looks like switch will be at meadow place?

    Didn't they learn from the bit by the croquet club?

    chdot: bus behind less of an issue for me than my bike's inability to make that turn without moving onto far side of path ie into route of south/west-heading cyclists).

    Posted 12 years ago #

  20. mgj
    Member

    CEC, learn? Which of their engineers has ever ridden that route? Probably these are the same ones who thought that putting some 'give way' markings (but no signs) on the existing crossings of the pavement at Meadow Place would reduce conflict with pedestrians. Or that dumping two large plant tubs at the foot of Meadow Place would ensure that bikes can go left up it towards Marchmont Road

    Posted 12 years ago #

  21. chdot
    Admin

    PDF

    Letter to nearby residents

    Posted 12 years ago #

  22. kaputnik
    Moderator

    To clarify - hot pink areas are removal of existing raised pavement, the blue dashed line is the new kerbstone line. My interpretation is that the width of access is therefore almost doubled here.

    The hatched red/pink area is the extent of resurfacing.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  23. cb
    Member

    It's a single access point to the west instead of the current two separate access points.

    In the current set up I've always assumed that the southern access (on the west side) is to allow access to South Meadow Walk and the northern access is to allow you to 'double back' and then turn left onto Melville Dr.

    I am in favour of dividing South Meadow Walk. Works on Leamington Walk and MMW. I think this should be done everywhere (e.g. NEPN)

    I can see why the cycle lane has been put on the north side as it clears space to the south for a pedestrian route across the junction. I don't actually think this is a major problem as long as the swap over is clearly marked.

    In fact, if done properly it won't even feel like a swap over. It will really only be a (minor) issue for pedestrians in my opinion.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  24. SRD
    Moderator

    thanks k'nik. that is 'better'. I think.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  25. kaputnik
    Moderator

    It's an improvement. 3 or 4 rebuilds later it might be almost good!

    Posted 12 years ago #

  26. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Have to say I've walked that way the last couple of mornings and it's just as much, if not more, of a problem as a pedestrian. Marchmont Road as well, unless you stay south for the crossing - but it's got two paths leading right up to the mouth of it, then no way to cross.

    Just one more of those little things that makes me cringe whenever I hear that the council is 'anti-car'.

    Mind you, I was talking again last night to a Dutch guy I know who used to be a councillor in Amsterdam, and is studying traffic planning here, and he was saying that in the Netherlands they seem to be going backwards, and pandering to the car driving public (and traders, who complain that their patrons need to park - even though studies found that the majority of spaces were actually being used by the traders themselves).

    Posted 12 years ago #

  27. SRD
    Moderator

    Emailed the project officer with queries. he confirms that the 'hot pink' bits will become carriageway (in this case bike lanes).

    And explains that the cyclepath is on the north-side so as to avoid conflict with access to residents on the south-side. Makes sense I guess, and I do tend to ride on the north side of it myself, for much the same reason.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  28. chdot
    Admin

    "My interpretation is that the width of access is therefore almost doubled here."

    West side one big instead of two small.

    East gap is moving north - think same size.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  29. neddie
    Member

    The engineer in charge of this junction took the time to meet a group from Spokes and FOMBL, one evening at the junction itself, to discuss the design. (I suspect it was in his own time too, which was very decent of him).

    Credit where credit due.

    I believe the design is significantly improved vs what is there presently.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  30. kaputnik
    Moderator

    @edd1e_h indeed that is very decent of him. Although I'm surprised he has to do such things in his spare time as consult with the key stakeholders / user groups! It's really something you imagine might be standard...

    Posted 12 years ago #

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