http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-21211874
Very sad.
Needless waste of life that could have been avoided if the council had had the guts to include this road in the Edinburgh South 20mph pilot zone.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Cycling News
Ped. killed by taxi on Marchmont zebra
(29 posts)-
Posted 12 years ago #
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The article doesn't mention the speed the taxi was travelling at so I think it unwise to speculate on this.
That said, the point in general is a good one: there is no reason to travel at more than 20mph in a built-up area. But what does Transport Supremo Lesley Hinds have to say on the matter?
"We want the main arterial routes like Queensferry Road to stay 40mph because traffic needs to flow"
Ah. Priorities.
Posted 12 years ago # -
We don't even need to delve into blame or otherwise, the fact is the survival rate for vehicle:pedestrian collision at 20mph is 97%. Yet our council thinks the priority for residential shopping streets (with quite a few schools in close proximity) like Marchmont Road is 30mph traffic flow.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Early hours of the morning... sad to see the number of late night casualties.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Precisely the same spot where a woman was found 2 months ago; a hit and run on the same zebra crossing. She was lucky to survive.
The zebra crossing is far more visually noticable when heading south, for some reason. When heading north, the crossing is not so visually obvious - maybe it's the positioning of the flashing belisha beacons - I don't know. They certainly don't flash very obviously, that's for sure.
I've seen a number of cars ram the brakes on at the last minute when they suddenly realise someone is stepping out onto the crossing.
I think the council should re-examine the wisdom of putting a zebra crossing on a road where many cars are travelling around 35mph. Either clearly signpost that there is a zebra crossing coming up, lower the speed limit or make it a pelican.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I think the council should re-examine the wisdom of putting a zebra crossing on a road where many cars are travelling around 35mph
I'd like to modify that statement into;
I think the council should re-examine the wisdom of putting a 30mph limit on a road where there is a zebra crossing
I'd like to see far more pelican crossings replaced by zebras, the former may offer more "protection" as they have an absolute red, but the way Edinburgh often implements them they're more of a barrier than a utility for foot journeys, I seem to spend more time crossing them on red man than green man.
Posted 12 years ago # -
In some London Boroughs they are restoring Zebra Crossings, and these require both pedestrian and driver to actually look at what the other party is doing and act accordingly, rather than blindly assuming the green aspect means go ahead without really looking.
Zebras also assist vehicular flow as unlike light controlled crossings where the full cycle has to be run through, the Zebra is an on-demand only for the period required by the pedestrian crossing the road.
Posted 12 years ago # -
In some London Boroughs they are restoring Zebra Crossings, and these require both pedestrian and driver to actually look at what the other party is doing and act accordingly, rather than blindly assuming the green aspect means go ahead without really looking.
Zebras also assist vehicular flow as unlike light controlled crossings where the full cycle has to be run through, the Zebra is an on-demand only for the period required by the pedestrian crossing the road.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I hate that zebra, traffic coming down the hill goes too fast - and it is a well used route for kids going to/from james gillespies high school.
Sadly I am surprised there are not more accidents.
Posted 12 years ago # -
How about putting zebra crossings on a raised table to force motorists to slow down? The radii of street corners should be tightened up to prevent motorists zooming in and out of side streets. The cycle lanes are a bit door-zoney - they should be relocated inbetween the parked cars and the pavement, as in the civilised countries. All very inexpensive measures. Safety built-in to the street design, rather than simply expecting all road users to behave themselves 100% of the time.
Posted 12 years ago # -
In some London Boroughs they are restoring Zebra Crossings
Boroughs like Newham have always had quite a few zebras peppered around, but the trouble is that many drivers totally ignore them. London roads are not policed in a manner that would deter this.
I'm fully in favour of scandinavian zebra style road markings at most junctions in urban areas, as this reinforces the hierarchy that should exist, where motorists defer to pedestrians at all urban junctions.
Posted 12 years ago # -
When I first moved to London I'd sort of forgotten how to use a Zebra because they were so rare here. That was 25 years ago of course.
Posted 12 years ago # -
How about putting zebra crossings on a raised table to force motorists to slow down?
They've done that on McDonald Road, the zebra is basically a full width speed bump too. That road has various build outs for traffic calming anyway. Still, the zebra mostly seems to be respected, but there are still idiot drivers out there. I witnessed one guy accelerate over the zebra as someone was trying to cross (see threads passim) and that was in broad daylight.....and why? So he could wait at the red light barely 100 yards further on.
Posted 12 years ago # -
lollipop woman run down twice in the course of her duties on McDonald both times were SLIDSYs due to low sun. Worrying if you trundle that fact on a little and see tht her duties are getting school kids across the road. Both times accomplished but before she could get back to the kerb she was run over.
On the 20mph LBP have declined to enforce these zones, is tht not the situation?
Posted 12 years ago # -
This crossing has a slightly troubled history.
The original call for it came from the Safe Routes to School groups at Sciennes and Gillespie's.
At that time the catchment areas were such that quite a few children went in 'opposite directions' - away from their nearest primary - and had to cross Marchmont Road.
David Begg agreed with the campaigners and declared that there should be a pedestrian crossing. This created a certain amount of fuss with council officials as it wasn't on the 'priority list' and so hadn't been budgeted for.
After it was installed there were concerns about cars not stopping.
There were site visits with officials and police and others - and a certain amount of head scratching.
'Could the lights be made brighter?' - apparently not.
I think some changes were made to lines on the road and signage.
But people have remained wary about the certainty of vehicles stopping.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"
Sally Hinchcliffe (@sallyhinch)
27/01/2013 11:06
Real traffic justice: improving the streets where people have been killedhttp://www.tokyobybike.com/2013/01/bicycle-lane-in-kawasaki-to-become.html
better than throwing someone in jail
"
Posted 12 years ago # -
"... could we push for all motor vehicles to have compulsory data recorders and cameras fitted to record how they were being driven in the event of an accident? Maybe we could start with taxis and skip lorries?" from a previous comment on a taxi involved in a fatal collision.
We don't know if the taxi in this case was travelling at 30mph or more or less (maybe the police do).Posted 12 years ago # -
I cross there often, but it is a dangerousthing to do. Not helped by the poor sight lines caused by double-parked taxis opposite the fast food joints either side of the road down the hill; I'll wager that there were plenty of those on Friday night when this happened. Also not helped by the fact that so many folk dont know how these crossings work; you cant just step out onto them and expect a car doing 30 to slam the brakes on, and indeed the HWC says you should wait for traffic to stop before stepping out IIRC. Drivers (and cyclists) should slow on approach and prepare to stop, which is why there are zigzags so that sightlines are preserved.
It isnt a traffic-light controlled crossing because of the need for a beeper; local residents (quite rightly) objected to that.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Oh, and anyone who wants me to cycle down there between the pavement and parked cars will see me ignoring the cycling 'facilities' even more.
Posted 12 years ago # -
you cant just step out onto them and expect a car doing 30 to slam the brakes on
Indeed. Stopping distance from 20mph = 40 feet. From 30mph = 75 feet. Almost twice.
The council really needs to go figure if they think that residential and shopping streets like Marchmont Road are compatible with 30mph limits.
Posted 12 years ago # -
you cant just step out onto them and expect a car doing 30 to slam the brakes on
Except if you don't step out on to a zebra crossing cars tend not to stop.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I'm sure I read some where that Zebra's are a bit of a chicken and egg. The road user isn't required to stop until the pedestrian has a foot on the road but a sane ped is unlikely to do that until the traffic has halted. I always try to make eye contact with the opposite user and gauge what they're going to do. "Is there murder in their eyes..."
On the subject of crossing types, its telling that Marchmont gets a zebra to keep things quiet in an (arguably) completely unsuitable site, but Gorgie has bleeping crossings every few hundred metres. At least the traffic in Gorgie is so slow most of the time a Zebra wouldn't be all that dangerous and it has actually pretty good sight lines.
Posted 12 years ago # -
To use a Zebra crossing, I as a pedestrian stand with one foot in the gutter, thus making it obvious I wish to cross, but I don't start crossing until I am sure that vehicles are stopping or have stopped. As a cyclist and car driver I admit I have a number of times missed people doing similar things and have gone over a zebra that I could and should have stopped at.
Who would like to take a bet that the taxi was sticking to the speed limit...?
Posted 12 years ago # -
"Who would like to take a bet that the taxi was sticking to the speed limit...?"
Actually me.
Apart from not knowing if the taxi was in any way at fault, being hit at 30 has a high chance of being fatal.
Reinforces the whole '20's Plenty' argument in most bits of urban areas.
http://www.slower-speeds.org.uk/20s-plenty
Posted 12 years ago # -
Zebra crossings from the Highway Code:
For Pedestrians
19
Zebra crossings. Give traffic plenty of time to see you and to stop before you start to cross. Vehicles will need more time when the road is slippery. Wait until traffic has stopped from both directions or the road is clear before crossing. Remember that traffic does not have to stop until someone has moved onto the crossing. Keep looking both ways, and listening, in case a driver or rider has not seen you and attempts to overtake a vehicle that has stoppedFor Drivers
195
Zebra crossings. As you approach a zebra crossing:look out for pedestrians waiting to cross and be ready to slow down or stop to let them cross
you MUST give way when a pedestrian has moved onto a crossing
allow more time for stopping on wet or icy roads
do not wave or use your horn to invite pedestrians across; this could be dangerous if another vehicle is approaching
be aware of pedestrians approaching from the side of the crossing.All of which is slightly confusing - drivers don't have to stop until someone has moved onto the crossing; pedestrians shouldn't move onto the crossing until drivers have stopped.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Hence my "one foot in the gutter" approach. I have "moved onto the crossing" so vehicles should stop, but I'm not going any further until I'm sure they have stopped.
I was being cynical about taxis...
Posted 12 years ago # -
It was actually a taxi driver who put me onto the strangeness of the crossing situation when he declared they were stupid because everyone had to give way to everyone else and I thought that sounded daft so checked when I got home.
I take the one foot out approach too, as well as the same cycling trick of staring at the driver and making sure they know I'm there.
I have seen a few drivers doing the 'must get past the cyclist' thing and in being so intent on that purpose almost plough into pedestrians on a crossing.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Last year approaching a zebra crossing at Fort Kinnaird on my bike I saw a man with two kids waiting to cross. I slowed but it wasn't until I'd stopped that he cautiously started to cross. "I do stop, unlike some cars" I pointed out to him and as if to prove my point he and his kids had to wait half-way across as an oncoming car went straight through without stopping.
Posted 12 years ago # -
My approach to zebras is step out while making eye contact with on-coming drivers. On most roads there's a good yard of two of road to cross before you'd be in the car's path, so it's not that high-risk a thing to do.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Oh, and I acknowledge my thanks to the driver who has stopped/slowed for me with a raised hand, nod etc.
Posted 12 years ago #
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