CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Commuting

If you can sit at 25-30mph around the town for even short bursts...

(37 posts)
  • Started 11 years ago by Wilmington's Cow
  • Latest reply from Wilmington's Cow

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  1. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    From the 'Bad Driving' thread, meant ot reply at the time, but thought it's best stripped out of there.

    The comment was one from xcm that I found interesting, ebing that if you can ride at 25-30mph then no-one tries to overtake you. Certainly in heavy traffic this may be true (because you'll be going faster than the traffic!), but as a general rule I don't find speed helps at all.

    I ride home most evenings round the south road of Arthurs seat and easily cruise at 30mph... With cars constanly up my backside trying to get past, to the extent that when one holds back I make sure to give him a big thumbs up.

    Worst I've experienced is probably Orchard Brae where 30mph is even easier to attain and hold, only for people to squeeeeeze past before the roundabout.

    I think there's a mentality that says, "That's a bike in front, which must be slower than a car therefore I must overtake."

    But I'd be interested in hearing if everyone is the same, or if faster does genuinely mean that people don't try to overtake?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  2. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Coming back from road club runs along Sciennes to get to Marchmont Cafés I've regularly been passed in the 20mph zone by cars (past school and hospital), when going over 20mph myself.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  3. Arellcat
    Moderator

    It can sometimes take a ludicrously primary position to discourage a following car driver from overtaking, to the point where it might be misinterpreted as an intention to turn right.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  4. wingpig
    Member

    "That bike is preventing me (ME!) from reaching the speed at which I am entitled to drive. I do not know what this speed is, for I do not look at my speedometer (which massively over-estimates anyway, pandering to 'safety'), instead relying on the 'flow of traffic' or the 'natural speed of the road' (coupled with my infallible ability to control my vehicle) and 'driving to the conditions' to judge how fast I should go."

    The same. You can be going at 25 a mere stopping distanceworth behind the vehicle in front and someone will try to squeeze past, elbows out or otherwise.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  5. chdot
    Admin

    "to the point where it might be misinterpreted as an intention to turn right"

    So they undertake you!

    Posted 11 years ago #

  6. Instography
    Member

    People pay hardly any attention to their speedometers (I don't say this as necessarily a bad thing, just a factoid that we need to understand for behaviour to make some sense) and most modern cars provide very little other feedback that would give a sensation of speed. Most cues come from other vehicles, including bikes. Cars tend to travel at much the same speed and very slow and very fast cars stand out.

    If you're going quickly your speed will, I suspect, still be registered by drivers as slow because all their experience tells them that bikes are slow and therefore need to be overtaken.

    Anyway, you might be at your top speed but they've hardly started moving at 30mph. The perception of your slowness and the illusion that some progress can be made or some advantage gained by overtaking will, in most cases, result in an attempt at passing.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  7. Dave
    Member

    It's been a while since we ran "Ride like your Gran" (which I'm wondering about promoting as part of Kim's Edinburgh cycling festival?) but if anyone needs a refresher, try holding up traffic in town at 10mph rather than 15-20mph.

    There's no question in my mind that you get vastly more time and space if you're pelting than otherwise.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  8. cb
    Member

    IME you are less likely to be overtaken, the faster you go although it certainly doesn't rule the possibility out.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  9. PS
    Member

    I'm of a similar view to you, @WC. If I'm in a queue, then yes, going at 25-30mph is usually enough to prevent overtakes. However, if there is space in front of me then chances are the driver behind will go for the overtake.

    I think it tends to be a knee-jerk reaction, usually driven by a lack of self-confidence in the driver - they are concerned that the drivers behind them will be irked by their failure to overtake the cyclist, so they try to squeeze past even when there isn't a gap. Although that may be me putting a positive spin some pretty poor driving from some drivers who aren't your standard boy racer/arrogant BMW businessman stereotypes.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  10. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Absolutely Dave, but could you say, "... nobody even tries to overtake"

    Are we kless likely to be overtaken simply because, by going faster, you're caught up less often?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  11. fimm
    Member

    On my 'long commute' (in MAWIL mode on my road bike) I come down the Lanark Road from Balerno. I probably do mid 20 mph down there, (assuming no headwind) and take a very assertive line partly due to parked cars and partly due to potholes. The speed limit there is 40 but I don't (thankfully) get many bad overtakes.

    The next section, from the junction just before the aqueduct past the Asda and along the Slateford Road to my turn-off I also take at a fair lick and in an assertive style. It tends to be busier and there are the odd examples of dodgy driving.

    I think it would be interesting to do all of this section on my Brompton as I wouldn't be so fast and I'd also "look slower". Unfortunately this would involve cycling the Brompton up the hill first...

    Probably the worst overtake I've had of this kind was going downhill in Holyrood park. I've also been overtaken at the very top of the Balerno hill (which is a spot where I can hit the speed limit if I put my mind to it).

    Posted 11 years ago #

  12. MeepMeep
    Member

    Echoing the comments noting that if there's any form of gap ahead, speed limits on a road and the speed of the cyclist generally don't seem to matter to the majority of drivers. Nor does whether there's a queue of traffic at a standstill within ten metres either, come to think of it.

    I tend to find I cycle in my most assertive position when really pushing myself and drift towards the kerb when pootling: I don't notice much difference in the space I'm given but I don't cycle at a leisurely pace much to reliably say. I think many of the close passes (when not deliberate punishment passes) may possibly be attributable to drivers misjudging and/or underestimating the speed cyclists can lick along at? I know it's been discussed on here before.

    Slightly related: I found it quite interesting when cycling to Penicuik along the A703 last night c.19:00 that drivers gave me more space than I often get in town, even on the fringes of the city. All of the cars gave me at least a metre and there were no harebrained overtakes. Perhaps the very obvious speed differential and the dark conditions made more of a cognitive impact on drivers?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  13. Coxy
    Member

    Funnily enough - heading East on the road South of Arthurs Seat used to be the only section I'd 'comfortably' reach 30mph. Bearing in mind it's a 30mph limit, most cars go at 40mph - moreso than most other 30 roads I know.

    A Saab convertable tried to overtake me there once, without realising there was a line of cyclists doing the same speed. An oncoming car meant he pulled in right next to me but kindly didn't run me into the verge. I held onto his windscreen pillar to get a lift and said 'evening' to his wife and kids who were staring at me.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  14. TSFDefender
    Member

    That's a situation Coxy! But I like your sense of humour!
    Drivers of motor vehicles often want to keep momentum up & not think about safety of cyclists enough - so aim & squeeze. More discilpline & cycling infrastructure needed.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  15. fimm
    Member

    Ouf, Coxy, I like it, but I wouldn't have the nerve to do that myself...

    My colleage and I were commenting that we reckon we get more space out on the A71 in the dark. (My theory is that drivers really notice you: "Look at that mental cyclist, I wouldn't cycle out here in the dark, its so dangerous..." when you're covered with reflectors and flashing lights and can be seen a mile off).

    Posted 11 years ago #

  16. crowriver
    Member

    Yeah the situation in Holyrood Park is really out of hand. It's supposed to be a park, not an 40mph rat run for motorists!

    Oh and if they insist on keeping the road open at both ends, the speed limit needs to be 20mph all the way.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  17. tammytroot
    Member

    My commute includes a narrow, steep hill, with blind dips, on which I can easily do 3o without pedaling.
    It is an unusual day if I do not experience an uneccessary and sometimes dangerous overtake.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  18. BaseCut
    Member

    I'm a new poster on here. I cycle up through the park, east to west most nights, on the cycle path. Am I wrong in being annoyed and impatient with the peds who insist on walking on the cycle path. It is clearly marked and when I'm struggling up the hill I really don't want to expend energy going around them, ringing bell etc.

    Gave up cycling west to east down through the park in the morning, as it's a race-track.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  19. Instography
    Member

    Queen's Drive? Is it segregated into a peds section and a bike section? Even so, if not technically or morally wrong it seems a little unaccommodating to be annoyed at having to give a little ding or an 'excuse me'.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  20. cc
    Member

    The uphill part is a shared path (it's striped; one half of the narrow path is red, the other green) and the more level parts are segregated, with the cycle path being the green path on the Crags side of the road and the footpath being the red path on the parliament/palace side of the road.

    However very few pedestrians understand the difference and most of them walk on the cycle path - quite understandably really as it's just a footpath that's been coloured green. I make energetic use of my bell when using the cycle path. I wouldn't recommend use of the path without a good bell as it always has people walking on it.

    To be more explicit: if cycle paths had a distinctive road-ish look to them I think we'd be justified in being annoyed by people walking on them. But in this country they don't. They're generally just paths of any old appearance which have a few pictures of bicycles slapped on them here and there. I can't blame people on foot if they're not immediately aware of the fine distinction.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  21. crowriver
    Member

    TBH most peds on the park path are fine and clear the way when I ring my bell. There's the odd one that is either deaf, wearing headphones or bloody mindedly standing their ground, mind you. Did a circuit of the path with my daughter on the back seat on Monday afternoon*, nice and sunny and lots of people out walking in the park. Also a huge number of cars, really too many I think. There was a big tailback at the roundabout going to Duddingston/Commie Pool.

    * - Went down the Innocent, to Porty and back via the 'closed' Seafield/Leith path.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  22. chdot
    Admin

    It was like this four years ago, isn't it still? Or just near the top?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  23. cc
    Member

    chdot: it's stripy like that on the hilly bit, roughly from Dumbiedykes upwards

    Posted 11 years ago #

  24. earthowned
    Member

    The paths are fine for pootling. However, I must admit that I mostly stay on the road because I don't like sharing a space with walkers if I'm in a rush.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  25. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    "However very few pedestrians understand the difference and most of them walk on the cycle path - quite understandably really as it's just a footpath that's been coloured green"

    The other issue is that cycle paths anywhere else, when they are differently coloured, are generally red - it's just the park where they're green and the ped sections are red (might also be why so many right on the pavement on the south road - though that could also be because drivers on the south road take it as a 40-50mph race track).

    Posted 11 years ago #

  26. chdot
    Admin

    Time to get motors out of the Park.

    Start at the top and work down...

    Posted 11 years ago #

  27. mgj
    Member

    Under current legislation (daft, but there you are), pedestrians can walk on either side of these lines; the restrictions only apply to bikes.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  28. crowriver
    Member

    @chdot, perhaps a petition to Edinburgh Council is in order? Or is it Holyrood (via "arm's length" bodies Historic Scotland/SNH) that needs to be petitioned? Or both? Or maybe the Queen?

    Anyway, They could easily close off the roads permanently: the barriers are already there, except I think the road to Duddingston.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  29. crowriver
    Member

    Historic Scotland is apparently an "Executive Agency" of the Scottish Government. So I guess ultimately it's Holyrood.

    Here are the FAQ on Holyrood Park traffic regs review:

    http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/faqs-traffic-regs-holyrood.pdf

    Current consultation on "how the policy for the historic environment delivers, contributes to, or obstructs other environmental objectives."

    I can imagine quite a few ways in which using Holyrood Park as a rat run obstructs other environmental obkjectives!

    http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/index/heritage/policy/environmental-assessment/historicscotlandsea.htm

    Posted 11 years ago #

  30. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    "Anyway, They could easily close off the roads permanently: the barriers are already there, except I think the road to Duddingston."

    Nope, all there as well, so easily done!

    Posted 11 years ago #

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