CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

If we build it, will they come (Stevenage ...)

(18 posts)

  1. sallyhinch
    Member

    This is very instructive from Carlton Reid

    http://www.roadswerenotbuiltforcars.com/stevenage/

    Basically: Stevenage does have a good, well-designed cycle network at least as good as what was being implemented in the Netherlands in the 70s, yet cycling has fallen from about 14% commuting modal share in the 60s to the usual 3%-with-a-following-wind now.

    The ECF's view is that it's because cars weren't restricted at the same time

    http://www.ecf.com/news/what-happens-when-you-build-it-and-they-dont-come-the-cautionary-tale-of-stevenage/

    I don't know Stevenage well enough to say one way or the other - but it did remind me that I was going to ask on here about what Livingston and East Kilbride are like & whether it's the same sort of situation. I was struck when talking to cyclists at Pedal for Scotland that the ones from both places couldn't actually think of anything they'd want to see improved locally, as they reckoned their network was already pretty complete and even well-maintained. But that may just be by British standards. Anyone here cycle there much? Any thoughts?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  2. DaveC
    Member

    I live in a new town, Dalgety Bay. We have a core network but its pretty much a coastal path sort of typical Sustrans path which weaves through the towns streets in a random way. We also have some joining up paths from Train St to St David's bay. The strees areall 20mph except for arterial routes whic are 30mph. Pretty good network of paths for pedestrians but of course cyclists are restricted. Traffic is generally light but as cycling goes I feel we have some good paths but not quite enough, especially when trying to get children to school without cycling on a path or roads.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  3. Calum
    Member

    Some of the infrastructure in EK is quite good. The paths are wide enough, separated from pedestrians and motor vehicles, and there are underpasses at roundabouts.

    The problem is that the cycle paths tend to pap you back onto the (busy, high-speed, dual-)carriageway frequently, and many roads that need cycle paths lack them altogether. The treatment of bus stops is also not very good. On the whole I don't see that EK's infrastructure can be described as adequate. It's a half-hearted effort and you certainly couldn't let a child cycle anywhere in town on their own, which is what I feel should be the goal and the quality bar.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  4. gembo
    Member

    Stevenage had no pavements when I was there in 1990 for a visit. As a pedestrian you walked on the cycle path which was as wide as a road. You shared it with motorbikes.

    EK I cannot comment

    Livingston has a large network of off road paths. I have used them a fair bit in the past, you are often the only person on them. They are a little windy. However, if I was going to Bathgate by bicycle,,Inwould use a combo of road and path, the last section towards Bathgate is in a country park but is actually old road network, these are less windy. Bathgate has a couple of good paths.

    The NEPN is better as straight as a disused railway to get to places you want to go to.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  5. fimm
    Member

    I work in Livingston and commute there from Edinburgh mostly by bike-train-bike and sometimes all the way by bike.

    I rarely cycle on the off road paths. However at least some of my reasons for this are to do with the fact that I have a very restricted set of journeys I want to make. So:

    1) the off road paths between the station and my office are a lot less direct than cycling along the road, (even though the road has a 40mph speed limit which I guess is not strictly adhered to by many)

    2) the most serious fall from a bike I have had in the past few years was due to black ice on a cycle path (this was when I did use them) and was one reason I stopped using them.

    3) I can think of one path near a school that does appear to be regularly gritted (and cleared of leaves) but I prefer to go the long way round because I'm a creature of habit and I can't be bothered to go and see if it is OK, I'll just go round.

    4) getting from the cycle path to the office involves a muddy path and I don't want to get my shoes or my bike muddy (I'm aware this is specific to my particular office!)

    5) However, on the odd occasion that I go into the Centre from the office by bike, there is a useful off road cycle path that is much more direct and so, guess what, I use it!

    6) Another problem is that the off road paths are hard to navigate. I'm not aware of a good map. So if I have to go somewhere new I will use the roads because I can find a route easily.

    7) I do like the off-road paths as a place to go running in my lunch hour. But, then I'm not trying to go somewhere: I'm quite happy to run for a bit and then turn round and run back.

    Oh, and there are lots more cyclists in Edinburgh than in Livingston, by my observation.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  6. fimm
    Member

    The articles about Stevenage are very interesting and worth reading.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  7. kaputnik
    Moderator

    If you build it they will come?

    Yes, but "it" has to be built as a direct and convenient route from where people are to where people want to be and "it" also has to have good connectivity to other paths and routes.

    Edinburgh I don't think has really got this latter bit yet. It's got lots of (for UK standards) really good bits of path, and a fairly comprehensive network in some parts of the city thanks to the poor foresight of our Victorian railway engineers, however there's countless places were a few hundred extra metres of path to connect bits here and there, or even just removing the odd obstacle here and dropping the odd kerb there would make a massive improvement.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  8. chdot
    Admin

    "I'm not aware of a good map"

    I got this years ago -

    Seems still available -

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1851373039

    Don't know if all paths logged in OSM

    http://WestLothian.cyclestreets.net/journey/from/55.901344,-3.543619/Livingston+North

    Posted 11 years ago #

  9. crowriver
    Member

    There's also the Spokes map, West Lothian & Livingston (3rd edition, 2012) - £5.95.

    http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/spokes-maps/

    If in any doubt that Spokes maps are good, check out this endorsement: “On a family ride to the Borders my brake cable broke – I checked the Spokes Midlothian map and found a shop in Penicuik (Motavation) – they couldn’t have been more helpful.“ [SRD, July 2010]

    Posted 11 years ago #

  10. fimm
    Member

    @chdot, interesting...
    The cyclstreets map doesn't seem to have a key, so I can't work out what the different coloured lines are telling me... (I've sent them feedback.) It does look quite useful... though there's something I don't understand on the section I use regularly...

    Posted 11 years ago #

  11. crowriver
    Member

    Oh I've used some paths around Uphall/Broxburn way and they're pretty good.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  12. chdot
    Admin

    Link at bottom right of map (probably should be bigger and/or elsewhere).

    http://westlothian.cyclestreets.net/journey/help/faq/#mapkey

    Also inspite of size, no http://livingston.cyclestreets.net

    Posted 11 years ago #

  13. fimm
    Member

    That key only tells me about cycle facilities. What's the difference between blue dotted lines and brown dotted lines, for example? (It could be tarmac/no tarmac, or it could be path where you are permitted to cycle/path where you are not permitted to cycle. Or something else.)

    (Not having a go at you, but at the map!!)

    Anyway I have my running kit with me and there's an oddity that will provide a useful target for my lunchtime run, so that's good :-)

    Posted 11 years ago #

  14. crowriver
    Member

    @fimm, Spokes map is good. I have the older edition, still very useful.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  15. chdot
    Admin

    "(Not having a go at you, but at the map!!)"

    No prob.

    Didn't actually look at key...

    Info must be somewhere - but if not easy/obvious needs looking into.

    (I had something to do with CS happening, but not its general details/spectacular success.)

    Posted 11 years ago #

  16. amir
    Member

    There was some chat on a similar theme a while ago
    http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8335

    Posted 11 years ago #

  17. sallyhinch
    Member

    Interesting response from my OH re Stevenage, where his employer used to have an office he visited occasionally:

    The first time he went there he took the train and walked from the station (along the same paths) but it was rather creepy because there was absolutely nobody about. After that he just did what everyone else in the office did and drove around the M25 (we were living in Maidenhead at the time) and claimed shedloads for the mileage.

    Everything was very spread out, with huge car parks and it reminded him of his US suburban childhood, so even with the cycling infrastructure which was great and completely separated from traffic, it still felt a car-dominated place.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  18. fimm
    Member

    Osm looks better than cyclestreets imho.
    Livingston also very car centered.
    All off-road paths shared use no segregation.

    Posted 11 years ago #

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