CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

A68 speed camera saw attacks continue

(22 posts)
  • Started 11 years ago by crowriver
  • Latest reply from thewavecry

  1. crowriver
    Member

    Two speed cameras have been attacked with a saw in the Scottish Borders - taking the total of such incidents in the region to six. The latest incidents happened on the A68 at Huntford and Camptown over the weekend.

    Police are treating it as theft, vandalism and attempting to pervert the course of justice. Supt Denise Mulvaney described it as a "systematic campaign of violence aimed at safety cameras. The method used to attack the cameras is highly dangerous, the people responsible for these actions are putting their own lives at risk as well as the safety of others," she said. "Anyone who comes into close contact with a camera that has been attacked in this fashion could be electrocuted. I'm urging any member of the public who has information they think might relate to any of the crimes aimed at safety cameras to contact the police."

    As well as the saw attacks, speed cameras in the Borders have regularly been set on fire - with 19 such incidents since 2004.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-21768836

    Posted 11 years ago #

  2. neddie
    Member

    CCTV cameras for the speed cameras?

    CCTV cameras for the CCTV cameras...?

    Aerial drones continuously recording video of the speed cameras...?

    Where does it all end?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  3. Uberuce
    Member

    So, aside from arson, vandalism, speeding and attempting to pervert the course of justice, what have otherwise law-abiding motorists ever done for us?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  4. thewavecry
    Member

    I had a strange conversation with some colleagues at work about this story. I made my usual point about speed cameras not being a problem if you stay under the speed limit, which led to "aye, but who stays under the speed limit." The justification for breaking the speed limit seems to be a) that everybody does it so why not me and b) it saves time. Even when I pointed out that the time saved was minimal over most journeys, that extra five minutes seemed to be of paramount importance.

    These are all reasonable, intelligent, capable people. I had to stop talking about it because I could feel my heckles rising. The key thing I took away was that those five minutes to them were the equivalent of an NRA member's rifle. It is an article of faith that those five minutes are theirs by right and you will have to pry them out of their cold, dead hands.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  5. chdot
    Admin

    "that extra five minutes seemed to be of paramount importance"

    What do they do with it??

    Presume it has a measurable cost in terms of extra fuel and maintenance - how many minutes work does it take to earn?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  6. gembo
    Member

    You use less fuel by going more slowly so speeding saves time but costs money? crossing town you probably get there in the same time by going more slowly, however this is a bit made up. People need to keep moving, they like to be in front of the bike rather than behind it until next set of lights.

    There was a landlord in Liverpool in the 1990s, ,Harry Brassey. he was getting a lot of stuff knicked so he put CCTV cameras in his flats, or at the doors etc, guess what, they all got knicked

    Posted 11 years ago #

  7. chdot
    Admin

    "crossing town you probably get there in the same time by going more slowly"

    Well given that a lot of driving involves racing to the next traffic jam that's probably usually true.

    "People need to keep moving"

    This needs some serious research.

    People seem 'happy' to queue for hours for doughnuts.

    Many also sit in long slow moving queues on the bypass, M8, Bankhead Drive etc. 'because there is no alternative'.

    However plenty involve in 'ratrunning behaviour' - presumably because they think it's quicker, though hard to prove. I suspect a lot is to do with the desire to keep moving.

    Of course - particularly in Edinburgh - there is a reluctance to close rat runs (eg left turn off Argyle Place for 'capacity' reasons - plus some locals sometimes complain that they would be inconvenienced.

    If the roads are 'overcapacity' (usually only for a few minutes a day of course) then public transport, car sharing, walking and cycling are available.

    But that attitude/strategy/policy would reduce the 'choice' of those whose choices are already inconveniencing others.

    This is perhaps highlighted by the fact that some of the people involved in redesigning Leith Walk get to work by bus and are reluctant to restrict 'traffic flow' on the roundabout as the think they (and the many fellow travellers) wouldl be worse off.

    Of course they are also aware that a serious clampdown on car use would be 'politically unacceptable'.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  8. Instography
    Member

    We (me and an academic I used to collaborate with) used to refer to is as 'the illusion of progress' - the idea that keeping moving, switching lanes, gaining some kind of positional advantage created the impression that progress was being made towards a destination even though you might have been better off waiting. It relates to queueing theory and is perhaps best understood if you imagine (or think back to the last time you were) sitting in a taxi watching the meter tick over. When you see it ticking over in stationary traffic you very quickly start to feel you are being robbed - spending money to sit still. But when it ticks over while you're moving it's OK. You're paying for progress made. So, movement trumps sitting still regardless of whether the movement is more productive in terms of reaching your destination.

    If you combine the illusion of progress with our other pet idea of 'contrived compulsion' - where people set up scenarios to 'force' them to do things they want to do anyway (like speeding 'because' they are late) then you have a potentially potent mix of driving behaviours.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  9. chdot
    Admin

    I'm glad it's been 'studied'.

    How does it get into public policy/consciousness?!

    Posted 11 years ago #

  10. chdot
    Admin

    "the idea that keeping moving, switching lanes, gaining some kind of positional advantage created the impression that progress was being made towards a destination even though you might have been better off waiting"

    Might relate to RLJing too...

    Posted 11 years ago #

  11. thewavecry
    Member

    The Dunning-Kruger is another big factor. Drivers assume that rules are in place as a catch-all for bad drivers and do not apply to highly skilled drivers (i.e. themselves) so they effectively exclude themselves from the rules.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  12. thewavecry
    Member

    Er, Dunning-Kruger effect...

    Posted 11 years ago #

  13. chdot
    Admin

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

    Posted 11 years ago #

  14. slowcoach
    Member

    "The justification for breaking the speed limit seems to be that everybody does it ..."
    is based on a false belief, especially for car drivers on rural roads (like the A68). DfT speed surveys show that average speeds are at or below the limit and only a small (but not small enough IMHO) proportion of drivers exceed the limit by enough to be punished.

    Rather than "criminals trying to cover their tracks" (from the tags), the recent attacks seem more like criminals trying to prevent the police doing their work.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  15. neddie
    Member

    The technological solution could be to fit all cars with GPS trackers that record speeds and locations and then upload that data to their insurance companies.

    Vehicles that frequently break the speed limits (or fail to upload data) would see their premiums multiply.

    It could all be done by the private sector at no direct cost to the user. The government would only need to make it mandatory.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  16. steveo
    Member

    They wouldn't even need to make it mandatory, the insurance companies could easily employ carrots or sticks where appropriate to get a fairly good adoption rate.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  17. thewavecry
    Member

    There are huge civil liberties issues with full scale GPS tracking. That aside, various insurers are already issuing 'black boxes' alongside certain policies. The idea is that you get a discount if you drive safely but you pay more if the black box indicates that you are driving dangerously too often.

    The trouble with that is that people who can afford it can drive however they like. Only people who struggled to pay insurance premiums would be obliged to drive safely.

    Still, I wonder if there would be merit in fitting black boxes to vehicles and only accessing their data to determine culpability in the event of an accident?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  18. PS
    Member

    only a small ... proportion of drivers exceed the limit by enough to be punished

    The "by enough to be punished" part is a strong contributing factor. Everyone knows that you don't get done for breaking the speed limit, rather you get done for breaking the speed limit by enough to be punished. It legitimises being "just a wee bit over the limit", which can be anything from 1% to 20% depending on your mindset...

    Posted 11 years ago #

  19. gembo
    Member

    Thewavecry

    The black box works to reduce premiums for younger drivers, where many of the accidents originate, I understand. Speed limited to 70mph, not sure how 30mph enforced? And time curfews too

    Posted 11 years ago #

  20. neddie
    Member

    A black box in every vehicle would certainly cut accidents. Just knowing that a black box is installed modifies driver behaviour.

    Black boxes could also be added to all vehicles at almost no additional cost, since speed, engine load, and acceleration information is already available from the engine management and airbag systems.

    Cameras front, rear and sides (these are already being fitted as parking aids) and a voice recorder would help too.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  21. slowcoach
    Member

    "Intelligent Speed Adaptation
    Research published by the UK Government in 2008 found that voluntary ISA reduced the amount of speeding in almost every category of ISA user. The study concluded that this technology can deliver substantial reductions in excessive speed and consequently considerable safety benefits. Dr Dave Marples who is an internationally renowned expert in Intelligent Speed Adaptors delivered a talk on ISA at the St Andrew’s Seminar" video link: http://youtu.be/MMUuCBymaPA

    Posted 11 years ago #

  22. thewavecry
    Member

    Gembo, I am pretty sure the black boxes that are out there now note any hard acceleration (under braking and turning) and not just speed.

    Posted 11 years ago #

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