CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Commuting

East End of Princes Street - Gridlock

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  1. cosmok
    Member

    I've been waiting to see just how traffic is going to flow in the city centre now that some of the wider pavements and amended road layouts are in place for the trams and its not been a great start. The main issue I've seen whether biking or driving is that there's simply too many buses and they don't seem to care about blocking other traffic at the expense of their own progress.

    A few times now the road crossing over to the Mound has been blocked by buses on Princes Street which have nowhere to go. And thanks to the congestion along Princes Street, it can take a few changes of the lights before they can move on.

    Even worse is along by Jenners. You have the same situation where impatient buses go ahead and block access to Princes Street for cars coming down from St Andrews Square, but a few times in the last week, I've then been blocked going down to Waverley Station by buses sitting in the lane meant for traffic turning right, waiting to filter in to the left hand lane. Again, caused by basic impatience and poor planning of bus stops not to mention the seemingly narrower road acting as a bottleneck.

    I know the trams are still some way off, but the initial signs really aren't good. The whole layout of the city centre seems to be becoming even more compromised by their desire to cram these tram lines in to an already over-crowded infrastructure.

    Has anyone else had similar problems while trying to navigate the centre these days?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  2. Blueth
    Member

    Is that not just a case of objective achieved then on the Council's part.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  3. DaveC
    Member

    Yes I'm with Blueth on this, my answer would be 'so what?' The more grid lock the more drivers will cotton on that driving through the city centre is a waste of time, and either use alternative transport (I'm not holding my breath) or drive on other roads further out.

    I did wonder why every one of the councils bus routes cut through the middle of Edinburgh when I first moved here. It forces busses to just queue across town. They should introduce services which end at the east or west and of town leaving it car free except between the hours of 7pm - 7am for deliveries.

    For cross town services they could run the south sub services, where commuters connect with frequent bus route on the spokes of Edinburgh's roads.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  4. cosmok
    Member

    I know it should come as no surprise, but it ends up affecting cyclists as well thanks to the shared infrastructure, so I'm not sure what incentive there is for people to get out of their cars and on to their bikes tbh.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  5. chdot
    Admin

    When the tram was first planned there was an assumption that most buses wouldn't run on Princes Street and people would change to the tram at Haymarket and St. A Sq.

    I believe CEC and LB (future tram operator) are still talking about which routes to run and where. This obviously has to factor in the uncertainties about 'one way on Princes Street and the other on George Street).

    Posted 11 years ago #

  6. SRD
    Moderator

    I've also heard mutterings about trying to get some of the buses switched from 'through' routes to half routes.

    I'm not sure about this. This was one of the compromises agreed in Oxford when they closed off the city centre to through traffic. It was a great relief to get to Edinburgh and find through routes still in existence.

    It would be interesting to look at the Oxford example and see if it encouraged more cycle use or not.

    We cycled a lot in Oxford, but I still found the bus changes inconvenient.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  7. PS
    Member

    Part of the city centre redesign is to look at bus routes and reduce the number of cross town ones going through Princes St or George St. I'm sure the Evening News will be up in arms and interview loads of confused passengers who fear change, but it can't be beyond the wit of man to come up with a workable solution (Queen St?).

    Posted 11 years ago #

  8. crowriver
    Member

    Queen St?

    Oh the drivers are so NOT going to like that.

    Keyholders of the private gardens will no doubt be up in arms too, due to the prospect of bus borne plebians gazing upon them from the top deck, as they partake of their garden walks, or whatever it is New Town folk do in their fenced off areas of greenery...

    Posted 11 years ago #

  9. PS
    Member

    They probably do much the same as what anyone else does in their shared gardens?

    Plenty of room for a bus lane on either side of Queen Street, plus an "other traffic" lane each way.

    I suspect the main issue with Queen Street would be that Lothian Buses have convinced themselves that it is too far for Joe and Joanna Public to walk from there to Princes Street.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  10. LivM
    Member

    @PS Time was when I had 2 slipped discs for months on end and could hardly walk 50m, I had to plan my life very carefully if I wanted to shop and work out which bus would take me as close as possible to somewhere that sold something I needed. Queen St to Princes St would have been out of reach. Yes that was me in a minority at that point, but I do remember how it felt when people talk about re routing services.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  11. Instography
    Member

    "They probably do much the same as what anyone else does in their shared gardens?"

    We have a fine view of Queen Street Gardens from the office (and we have a key for those two good days a year). They do but they're much better at picking it up.

    I've always thought buses were the main cause of congestion in Edinburgh precisely because they just don't care about blocking junctions.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  12. cc
    Member

    When I worked alongside Queen St Gardens our company had a key to them. Nice. I went cross country skiing there one winter. I'd rather it was a public park though.

    If junctions are being regularly blocked by buses then I'd blame the junction design, and maybe also the design of something up ahead - for example ludicrous queues of buses on Princes St; the lack of safe convenient unthreatening cycling facilities getting people out of cars and buses; thoughtless road design; sloooow pedestrian crossings making it frustrating and inconvenient to walk; poorly maintained utilities having to be repeatedly dug up; etc.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  13. Instography
    Member

    Why would you blame the junction design rather than the bloke (for it is usually a bloke) who just decided to drive his bus right across the clearly marked junction?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  14. Min
    Member

    Yes I'm with Blueth on this, my answer would be 'so what?' The more grid lock the more drivers will cotton on that driving through the city centre is a waste of time, and either use alternative transport (I'm not holding my breath) or drive on other roads further out.

    The problem with that is that if you think it is inconvenient for motorists then what are the alternatives?

    Bus - Well then you ARE the one sitting in the mile-long bus jam. No thanks.

    Cycling - Too dangerous.

    The council just haven't thought it through or don't care. They apparently don't want ANYONE in the city centre except tramloads of tourists from the airport.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  15. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Apparently* Lothian Buses will reduce its fleet by 19 when trams arrive. At 10m per bus, that's 190m of buses, not even enough to back up one lane of Princes Street.

    I guess nobody ever thought to plan that as Lothian Buses has developed its network into a smaller number of very high-frequency services, all of which seem to be routed down Princes Street, that inevitably it would result in busjam.

    *Wikipedia, referencing Chipwrapper, so could be nonsense

    Posted 11 years ago #

  16. crowriver
    Member

    I guess nobody ever thought to plan that as Lothian Buses has developed its network into a smaller number of very high-frequency services, all of which seem to be routed down Princes Street, that inevitably it would result in busjam.

    No, I'm sure they had the Lothian buses figured out. They forgot about the First buses though, and the Stagecoach express, Megabus, tour coaches, etc. all of which currently use Princes Street. It doesn't help that York Place is one big roadwork, meaning many regional services to/from the bus station are diverted...

    It is incredibly exasperating cycling along Princes Street nowadays, especially at peak time. Largely empty double deckers blocking both lanes in each direction.....if we're on the tandem the fat tyres mean we can just hop into the bollarded off tram line zone though. Then it's a breeze to get from one end to the other! I wouldn't try it with narrow tyres though...

    Posted 11 years ago #

  17. chdot
    Admin

    "Apparently* Lothian Buses will reduce its fleet by 19 when trams arrive."

    I expect that figure has appeared in various reports.

    The actual number will depend on many unknown unknowns - not least what will LB have to cut to subsidise the tram.

    Or alternatively how many more buses/routes will be required to raise extra revenue...

    Posted 11 years ago #

  18. kaputnik
    Moderator

    maybe they could fit retractable tram wheels and couplings to the 22 and when it gets to Princes Street they can attach it to the back of the tram and drag it as far as the Gyle :)

    Posted 11 years ago #

  19. cosmok
    Member

    @ Instography "Why would you blame the junction design rather than the bloke (for it is usually a bloke) who just decided to drive his bus right across the clearly marked junction?"

    That's obviously part of the issue, but I have no doubt its being exacerbated by the narrowing of the available road space. You always get the odd idiot who blocks a junction, but its becoming a regular occurance now in and around Princes Street (at least during the times I commute) and the only thing that's changed is the road layout.

    With the random collection of one way signs going up around the centre, with some sections trams only, some shared with cars & bikes, not to mention the death-trap tram rails themselves, I really do wonder just what state Edinburgh is going to be left in by the time they finish the project.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  20. chdot
    Admin

    "
    EDINBURGH’S trams network faces running at a loss for up to the first five years of operation.

    As much as £3.2 million a year will be set aside from the city council budget to cover start-up costs and operational losses.

    An annual dividend from Lothian Buses, which could amount to £16m over five years, will be given to tram chiefs.

    Passenger numbers are expected to be significantly lower in the first two years of operation than first predicted.

    Previous estimates had put the number of travellers at about nine million a year – but that figure now stands at just over five million.

    Concerns have been raised over using profits from Lothian Buses, which will run the network, to subsidise the running of the 13km route from Edinburgh Airport to York Place.

    "

    http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/transport/edinburgh-trams-bosses-down-to-last-20m-1-2905775

    Posted 11 years ago #

  21. cosmok
    Member

    What exactly was the business case/justification for the tram project? I could understand it if it was a city-wide network, linking all the outlying towns with the centre and airport for example, but I've honestly forgotten how they managed to justify such a massive outlay on a small section of tramlines which overly existing bus routes?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  22. kaputnik
    Moderator

    But it [i]is[/]i a network, if you believe the marketing nonsense, a network of a half a line and an enormous depot, but a network none-the-less!

    Posted 11 years ago #

  23. cc
    Member

    ISTR part of the justification was that it would, it was supposed, reduce the pollution in some city centre streets from dangerous/illegal levels and reduce the resulting heavy fines which the council would have to pay.

    And, you know, cool continental places have great tram systems so why can't we?
    (The answer would seem to be that cool continental places employ people who know what they're doing)

    Posted 11 years ago #

  24. chdot
    Admin

    "What exactly was the business case/justification for the tram project?"

    Don't go there - you'll regret it.

    Snapshot -

    'To allow the Waterfront to be developed '

    'To get people to the ERI' (OK that was Line 3)

    'To persuade people to get out of their cars, because trams are a sooperior form of PT' (Which missed the reality that quite a lot of Edinburgh folk don't have a problem with using the buses.)

    'To prove that Embra is a propa EuroCity' (With or without bikes.)

    'Because a long gone Scottish Executive would only give £450m for a tram (network) - not some useful combination of better buses, improved pedestrian experiences and great cycle infrastructure.'

    Posted 11 years ago #

  25. Blueth
    Member

    "I've also heard mutterings about trying to get some of the buses switched from 'through' routes to half routes."

    What bus operator would not want to see customers paying two fares per cross-town journey rather than one?

    Or they might just jump in the car.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  26. neddie
    Member

    @Blueth

    Going across town on the bus is unattractive anyway, because the bus takes so long to get through Princes St.

    Transferring between buses/trams/electric city loop bus might make the system work better, if tickets become valid for transfers like the continental system. i.e you buy a ticket for £1-50 and it's valid for an hour for as many transfers as you like

    Posted 11 years ago #

  27. PS
    Member

    The business case for trams is that trams \m/ ROCK \m/ and every euro city that's put a tram system in has soon moved to putting in extra lines.

    The problem is, these other euro cities have managed the process a hell of a lot better than TiE did.

    Posted 11 years ago #

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