CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Bus lanes to change

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  1. ih
    Member

    Bus lanes are not cycling infra, but as a cyclist riding the busiest streets, they can definitely be a huge benefit.

    Problems with Edinburgh bus lanes are:
    They aren't permanent resulting in them becoming car parks. As said upthread, if roads aren't busy enough to need the bus lane, chances are they aren't busy enough to require it to be taken over by other vehicles.
    The shocking state of the surface on bus lanes. This is partly to do with the obsession of making the surface a different colour, which quickly gets rutted and potholed. The disadvantage of monochrome surface could easily be outweighed by a much better maintained surface with clear white symbols on it.There should also be an improved specification for road building at bus stops so that they don't become ploughed up by bus wheels.
    Ok, passing buses at stops is a serious problem, and I think better bus infra would improve it, such as having bus bays at stops, or even (stand by for brickbats) fewer stops. I haven't seen any other town/city where the bus stops are so closely spaced on the same route.

    I don't have a major problem with motor-cyclists in the bus lanes, they are vulnerable too. (For the sake of clarity, I am not a motor cyclist) I do have a problem with them in ASZs. Bad and dangerous motor cycle riding should be reported though.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  2. Morningsider
    Member

    Bus lanes (greenways) aren't cycle infrastructure. However, we aren't getting cycle infrastructure instead of the bus lanes. We are simply getting more lanes for general traffic outside of peak hours.

    I have been cycling long enough to remember the main roads before the bus lanes. The bus lanes improved things for bus users and, for me at least, cyclists as well. This is a retrograde step for sustainable travel, contrary to the Council's own policies on encouraging the use of active and sustainable modes.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  3. 559
    Member

    Bus lanes are not enforced !
    7am to 8am, every day.
    Plain clothes policeperson with camera at the bus stop on the westbound side at the carpet shop on St. Johns Road, will easily pay for their wages.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  4. Roibeard
    Member

    @559 - I think the bus lanes are no longer a police issue, having been decriminalised in Edinburgh to let the Council take over (camera) enforcement (cf parking on a double yellow, no longer a police traffic warden issue).

    I'm not sure that the Council has any persons to do the enforcement, relying instead on the cameras, but perhaps someone can correct me on that one.

    Robert

    Posted 9 years ago #
  5. acsimpson
    Member

    Am I wrong to think that the council allocates a percentage of the maintenance for inside 1.5m of bus lanes as cycle spending when making up their 7% cycle spend?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  6. neddie
    Member

    @acsimpson

    Yes, I think you are right on that one.

    It is a con!

    Posted 9 years ago #
  7. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Lothian Buses a few years back had some vans marked up as "Greenways patrol", I'm not sure what their purpose was though, if they were actively enforcing or just their maintenance vans marked up as such to make them appear more official guv'nor.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  8. 559
    Member

    @Roibeard, Point noted, still no visibility of enforcement. If a greenways van sits there, then no one will go in the lane for the period of time, the van is parked.

    What is needed is enforcement that gets into the driving collective mind that there is high risk of enforcement, so that they then change their driving habits.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  9. Stickman
    Member

    I haven't seen any other town/city where the bus stops are so closely spaced on the same route.

    Yep. The stop at the zoo was recently moved and it now must be less than 100 yards from the next one opposite Pinkhill.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  10. neddie
    Member

    Bus/cycle lanes -> car/lorry lanes … unless you object

    http://www.spokes.org.uk/2015/01/buscycle-lanes-carlorry-lanes-unless-you-object/

    WHAT YOU CAN DO
    If you agree with us, please…

    Object to the order(s) by Weds 18 February. Email… trafficorders@edinburgh.gov.uk, stating that this is an objection to ETRO/14/38B and/or ETRO/14/38A. Then give your reasons. If you are short of time, it is not essential to look up the Orders, but obviously do so if you have time. There is also a postal address – click on the above links and see the file called ‘advert.’

    Contact your councillors. Tell them what you think; ask them to support you and speak to their party’s Transport Spokesperson. Find your councillors at http://www.writetothem.com. Interestingly, one member who has already contacted his 4 councillors found that 2 didn’t even know about this!

    Are you in a group that is concerned? For example a local cycling, community or parents’ group. Please urge them to object. Alternatively, would they like to sign the Spokes objection? If so please email spokesATspokes.org.uk a.s.a.p.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  11. acsimpson
    Member

    Objection sent and forwarded to my councillors. I also took the opportunity to invite them to POP.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  12. MediumDave
    Member

    Done. Gorgie Road will become even more awful than it is already without the nice bus lanes.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  13. neddie
    Member

    Sent to:
    trafficorders@edinburgh.gov.uk

    Dear Sir/Madam,

    I am writing to object to the changes to the bus/cycle lanes covered by ETRO/14/38B and ETRO/14/38A, for the reasons as follows:

    - there is currently no issue with off-peak congestion in Edinburgh, so what problem are these changes attempting to solve?
    - it goes against the council's own Local Transport Strategy (LTS) of encouraging public transport use and cycle use over private car use.
    - the LTS also states that bus lanes should be extended & enhanced where possible (and not degraded)
    - it will discourage off peak cycle journeys as cars & heavy lorries will be using the lanes
    - it will discourage pupils from walking home from school, as cars & heavy lorries will be passing close by the pavements making the roads seem more dangerous & uninviting.
    - increasing the road capacity for private motor vehicles will encourage modal shift toward the private car, increasing pollution (which Edinburgh is already illegal on)
    - it will encourage illegal parking in the bus lanes during off-peak hours
    - no proper consultation or study was carried out to evaluate pollution, modal shift, illegal parking, cycle use or any 'unintended consequences'

    Regards, edd1e_h

    Posted 9 years ago #
  14. chdot
    Admin

    @eh

    Think it'll just copy that!

    Posted 9 years ago #
  15. neddie
    Member

    @chdot

    go for it!

    Anyone else is welcome to crib it too...

    Posted 9 years ago #
  16. DdF
    Member

    Great objection by edd1e_h! Hope he inspires lots more, but suggest it's good to personalise your own a bit rather than making as exact copy, which looks a bit too much like box-ticking only.

    In particular, if you use any particular all-day lanes which will be affected please do mention which ones. And if you are emailing your councillors do specify which of the all-day lanes would affect you.

    There's a link to the map in this tweet...
    https://twitter.com/SpokesLothian/status/562902571208437760
    It's the blue lanes which would be changed from allday to peak-only (and scrapped on Saturdays).
    Would be good to increase the RTs of that tweet further too!

    Posted 9 years ago #
  17. Greenroofer
    Member

    I've sent in my objection (looks like Sunday night is the night for objecting) and sent it to my councillors too.

    I'll be inviting my councillors along to PoP, but thought I'd do the two things separately.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  18. chdot
    Admin

    "but suggest it's good to personalise your own a bit rather than making as exact copy"

    Don't worry, I will!

    - there is almost no off-peak congestion in Edinburgh. If there is a problem with drivers 'not understanding the current rules,' then making ALL bus lanes the same is a good idea.

    7am to 7pm should simplify things.

    7 days a week would probably help.

    If not, 24/365 would work.

    24/365 would be good for 'advisory' cycle lanes too.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  19. gembo
    Member

    Would hope this could also generate revenue for the council? Fining infringers, issuing private taxis with permits??

    Posted 9 years ago #
  20. gembo
    Member

    here is what I wrote, reference to eddie-h

    I am writing to object to the plans regarding removal of bus lanes at off peak times covered by ETRO/14/38A and ETRO/14/38B. I think bus lanes work well and if anything should be extended say for example to all lanes 7a.m. to 7p.m. as this would simplify things for drivers knowing when to use and when not to use them (should this be required).

    During peak times cars behave themselves by and large – I see most cars observing the lane restriction at Slateford – Water of Leith Visitor Centre on a daily basis though I think the council could generate revenue by fining infringers and indeed issuing permits at a cost to private taxis.

    After 9a.m. traffic on Edinburgh roads is light until tea time. The cars can cope perfectly well with a single lane.

    The point is to encourage people onto buses. The lanes should therefore speed up bus journeys. Allowing cars back into the lanes will slow journey speeds again and discourage bus use. You could remove bus stops that are ridiculously close together which would also speed things up though I understand this might require an act of parliament 
    Removing bus lanes goes against the council's own Local Transport Strategy (LTS) of encouraging public transport use and cycle use over private car use. The LTS also states that bus lanes should be extended & enhanced where possible (and not degraded). Removing lanes will also will discourage off peak cycle journeys as cars & heavy lorries will be using the lanes. Removing bus lanes will discourage pupils from walking home from school, as cars & heavy lorries will be passing close by the pavements making the roads seem more dangerous & uninviting. Removing bus lanes is basically increasing the road capacity for private motor vehicles and will encourage modal shift toward the private car which goes against the LTS and will also increase pollution for example on St John’s Road where pollution levels are already illegal or around Stenhouse Primary School which is next to Calder Road. Removing bus lanes will also encourage illegal parking in the bus lanes during off-peak hours.

    Finally I am not aware of any proper consultation or study that was carried out to evaluate pollution, modal shift, illegal parking, cycle use or any 'unintended consequences'. The removal of the bus lanes appears to be a knee jerk reaction to appease motorists. Indeed I am not even aware of any motorists who are bothered about bus lanes anymore. Everyone seems to accept them. Thus the whole concept seems retrogressive and I would ask that it is reconsidered.

    Note the funny wee sqaure was a smiley in the e-mail :-)

    Posted 9 years ago #
  21. chdot
    Admin

    "
    You can:

    Object to the order(s) by Weds 18 February. Email… trafficorders@edinburgh.gov.uk, stating that this is an objection to ETRO/14/38B and/or ETRO/14/38A. Then give your reasons. If you are short of time, it is not essential to look up the Orders, but obviously do so if you have time. There is also a postal address – click on the above links and see the file called ‘advert.’ Note: your objection should include your own postal address.
    Contact your councillors. Tell them what you think; ask them to support you and speak to their party’s Transport Spokesperson. Find your councillors at http://www.writetothem.com. Interestingly, one member who has already contacted his 4 councillors found that 2 didn’t even know about this!
    Are you in a group that is concerned? For example a local community group or parents’ group. Please urge them to object too.

    "

    http://greenerleith.org.uk/blog/leith-walk-revamp-undermined-dangerous-bus-lane-plan-5055

    Posted 9 years ago #
  22. gembo
    Member

    Do please object and emphasise you are a driver who finds bus lanes to be fine. Otherwise it will come across as cyclist objection which the chap doing it is already aware of.

    I may contact him directly in my daytime job where I sometimes get paid to observe behaviour. From this point of view I can say people need things kept simple. So a clear 7a.m to 7p.m. Ban on bus lanes is actually something people would welcome from the stance of understanding when they can use them. Once it gets a little bit complicated people start losing their grasp of what is allowed. See also the george St bollards.

    The best systems solutions are those that are easiest to understand.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  23. fimm
    Member

    Done.
    Do we need another sample email? (I basically pinched bits from the above and added some stuff about Leith Walk).

    Posted 9 years ago #
  24. LaidBack
    Member

    Gembo Indeed I am not even aware of any motorists who are bothered about bus lanes anymore. Everyone seems to accept them. Thus the whole concept seems retrogressive and I would ask that it is reconsidered.

    It's odd to 'encourage' the encroachment of bus lanes by private cars. I'm aware of some drivers feeling it is their duty to drive on them when permitted as this part of the road has been stolen from them - (much as the city by-pass has from us!).

    However the bus lane on Calders Road works quite well on Sundays when there is infrequent public transport and greater private car use. 99% of drivers seem happy to let bikes ride on it two abreast - even though they are allowed to use it they prefer to stay off it. I fear that if this situation is changed then we could get more aggression.
    We were feet first cycling on the bus lanes today...


    First organised ride 2015 by LaidBackBikes, on Flickr

    Posted 9 years ago #
  25. HankChief
    Member

    Measures of success [my bold & underlining]
    4.1 Adjustment/removal of ineffective bus lanes will improve traffic flow and reduce congestion at these locations, which in turn will improve air quality at these locations.
    4.2 If the peak periods bus lane trial is successful and the proposals are made permanent, there would be a single operational category for approximately 90% of the city’s bus lane network. This would reduce any confusion over when bus lanes were operating, improving compliance and possibly removing the need to investigate additional bus lane signage.

    Ineffective bus lanes
    3.34 The adjustment or removal of ineffective bus lanes will improve traffic flow by reducing congestion. Ineffective bus lanes in the context of this report, are bus lanes where one of the two following conditions exists:
    3.34.1 Locations where buses, taxis and cyclists receive marginal or no advantage and which also cause localised congestion (solution – remove bus lane); and
    3.34.2 Signalised junctions where there are heavy right turning traffic flows and which also suffer from regular congestion. In these instances a potential solution is to curtail bus lanes further back from the junctions, thus improving traffic flows while still maintaining an acceptable level of bus priority.
    3.35 As part of the review process a first tranche of five locations were identified (refer to background paper 2 for further details) and TRO procedures were subsequently undertaken, to remove/amend the bus lanes at these locations.
    No objections were received to these proposals and these changes are in the process of being implemented.
    3.36 There is an ongoing programme to identify further ineffective bus lanes and implement the appropriate changes. Consideration will be give to providing reasonable alternative cycling facilities in locations where a bus lane is being curtailed or removed.

    http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/44353/item_72_-_bus_lane_network_review

    From my reading of it, of the 2 measures of success, one is about ineffective bus lanes - of which there are 5 locations.

    The other is to reduce confusion - which could have just as easily done by making them 24/7 bus lanes...

    I get the point about some bus lanes being ineffective. I think they have recently removed the ones at Gorgie Rd heading East towards Chesser Ave and Lanark Road heading East towards Craiglockhart Ave, which both got clogged by queuing right turning vehicles so buses couldn't access them.

    But they only talk about this in 5 locations, but they are looking for more. Unless they are claiming that all the full time ones are ineffective, it can't be a success to change them to part time.

    This does leave the only reason that they are making this change is to reduce confusion <sigh>

    Posted 9 years ago #
  26. MediumDave
    Member

    Got a response from Transport Convener Adam McVey (comments passed on via Cllr Fullerton - Sighthill/Gorgie) and expect a
    response from Cllr Wilson.

    The response I got is below. Anyone else had any joy?



    I appreciate your concerns over cycling in the lanes out-with peak times but the lanes will still be operational during commuting hours and therefore no impact on cycling to and from work is anticipated. Should the change proceed it will change the hours of around 1/3 of lanes in the city as the rest are already on-peak hours only. While bus lanes have been used by cyclists, their predominant purpose is to ensure public transport flows throughout the city.

    When this proposal went to city’s transport forum (which includes Councillors from all parties and representatives of all modes of transport) it was decided that standardisation of the lane times would help make them simpler for drivers. It was felt that when standardising lanes it was more equitable to have bus lanes operating in peak times rather than have every lane operate 24/7 or as all day lanes. This would not preclude the Council from continuing to invest in cycling lanes along key cycling routes in the City.

    Motorcyclists will also be given access to the lanes as it was felt at the transport forum that including motorbikes would have no determent, either to cyclists or to the flow of public transport.

    These changes will be monitored to see if there is any impact on cyclist numbers and a report will come to committee 9 months after the change to assess the impacts.

    I hope the information above goes some way to address your concerns about how the policy change came about but I’ve included the report itself which might give a deeper insight.
    http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/44353/item_72_-_bus_lane_network_review

    Doesn't look like much will change...

    Posted 9 years ago #
  27. SRD
    Moderator

    pretty explicit that they only care about commuters.

    sad.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  28. SRD
    Moderator

    http://deceasedcanine.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/act-now-to-save-our-bus-and-bike-lanes.html

    now with added comment from Spokes :)

    Posted 9 years ago #
  29. chdot
    Admin

    "pretty explicit that they only care about commuters."

    Yes.

    There was a 'promise' of '15% of joumeys, by bike, by 2020'.

    Now it's '15% of joumeys to work, by bike, by 2020'.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  30. cb
    Member

    Possibly slightly OT but it was interesting seeing the A8/Glasgow Road outside Murrayfield during yesterday's six nations.

    The stretch along to Western Corner was almost wall to wall coaches in both bus lanes. It would have been pretty horrible to cycle along. The route had effectively become a fast, straight hemmed in road, with no pavements and no escape routes.

    I'm assuming some or all of these buses would normally be sitting Russell Road?

    Seven double decker Lothian Buses parked on the hill west of Western Corner, presumably ready to ship the multitudes back into town. And that's with a tram!

    Posted 9 years ago #

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