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"Tram fall cyclists to sue ‘negligent’ council"

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  1. "When I am cycling I control the speed and direction of my bike.

    If we agree that the road is more dangerous then should we not take steps to mitigate the increased risk ?

    Changing the road layout is a seperate issue to dealing with what is currently there."

    Statements 1 and 2 are 100% correct. However statement 3 isn't really. Because yes, you are in control, and yes there are things you can do to mitigate, but if the road makes those mitigations difficult, if not impossible, then changing the road layout is the only relevant mitigation (save taking an entirely separate route).

    See, the thing is, to cross the tracks 'safely' (in itself a slightly ambiguous and impossible to accurately define) phrase, you cross at 90 degrees. You don't cross at a shallower angle than 60 (I think) degrees (certainly be advice provided at the time the tracks were first being laid). The layout at Haymarket makes this impossible in any practical sense. Certainly you can cross at those angles, but then you factor in having a car or bus behind you, the weather, weight of traffic affecting those around you, night or day. So yes, I'm in control of that bike. I am not, unfortunately, in control of those around me with whom I have been put into conflict by that road design.

    The other aspect is that getting through without falling off is not equivalent to getting through safely. Perhaps a certain proportion are getting through luckily (as luck appears to have played an important part in anyone falling not having done so in front of a vehicle that then hasn't stopped so far). But even if we couny 'safely' as not falling off, then as Insto says, 1 in 100 is a AWFUL record. F'rinstance, y'know when drivers complain about a road being dangerous - now that's usually because there are 3 or 4 incidents a year at that spot. Can you imagine if there was a corner on a road where 1 in 100 cars were sliding off and into the field beyond.

    I think Morningsider has summed it up perfectly: "However, there is a huge cluster of falls at Haymarket that is not repeated elsewhere. I would argue this means there is some kind of systemic fault at Haymarket, rather than with the cyclists passing though there"

    Posted 9 years ago #
  2. ARobComp
    Member

    CHdot - that'd be

    ADMIN EDIT

    Thanks for info (removed, just in case...)

    Posted 9 years ago #
  3. chdot
    Admin

    Story on BBC1 6:30

    Posted 9 years ago #
  4. DrAfternoon
    Member

    For me the core of the problem is that there's a set of risks that require conflicting actions to mitigate them. The best position and use of your attention to deal with traffic is at odds with what you need to deal with the tram tracks, no matter how skilled and experienced you are.

    It's unacceptable for the road surface to be such a distraction. Potholes are bad enough, but the tram tracks are another order of magnitude worse.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  5. dougal
    Member

    99% safety record - two nines - ye'll have had your sigma. I'm sure we can do better than that.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  6. Dangerous
    Member

    @wingpig
    Why do you think I meant to post to EEN rather than CCE ?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  7. wingpig
    Member

    The nature of the comment. The tone; the flavour.

    I was in control of the direction and speed of my bike last Wednesday, when I chose to move a lane to the left and cross the tracks at a more oblique angle than I had originally planned due to Taxi #922 moving into the space I had been planning to occupy. I decided to use my control of my own speed and direction to not play chicken with a two-tonne taxi, and I'm a fairly confident and fit cyclist.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  8. Dangerous
    Member

    @stiltskin
    Where is this large number of cyclists ?

    60 in 15 months to me is one per week.

    Where is your evidence that they are competent and experienced ?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  9. Dangerous
    Member

    @Instography

    Never said any of that.

    Even the 1 in 100 is invented by yourself.

    I said "Above 99%"

    Posted 9 years ago #
  10. Dangerous
    Member

    @Wilmington's Cow

    My point is you ride to the conditions as in how the junction is now. By all means propose changes / improvements but that truly is a separate issue to how do I cycle across the tram tracks today.

    IMHO 60 degrees is too high. I am comfortable with less than 45 degrees. There is no definite right answer though and it depends on a number of factors such as speed, weather, tyre width and so on.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  11. steveo
    Member

    So would you accept a floor which was of such poor quality "otherwise able ambulators" were falling due to it?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  12. steveo
    Member

    double post....

    Posted 9 years ago #
  13. Dangerous
    Member

    @wingpig

    Please explain why my comments are not appropriate for CCE.

    Don't understand what you mean at all.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  14. SRD
    Moderator

    Did wingpig say 'not appropriate'? Perhaps he merely meant they were 'better suited' to the EEN'? Or more like to be appreciated there?

    Can't see that you've broken any CCE rules, but also can't see that you 'd expect anything other than an argument with that position.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  15. "There is no definite right answer though and it depends on a number of factors such as speed, weather, tyre width and so on."

    Exactly. So with so many variables is it therefore possible for people to cross the tracks in a way that they are in total control, but still manage to fall?

    And while you think that 45 degrees is safe, official guidance says it's not, so who determines what is safe, and if you come off crossing at 45 degrees, with you in full control of your bike, can we say that you didn't do so safely because official guidance says 60 degrees and you didn't follow that guidance?

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that you've stated the road conditions are meaningless, and it's all about how someone controls their bike, with the individual making the tram tracks dangerous by how they cross them, but there are different factors in play, as well as differing advice and opinions, while there is one constant - the road layout is awful. Yes, we can all mitigate, and all do on every bit of road, but there are a disproportionate number of issues at this bit of road.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  16. Nelly
    Member

    I don't ride that route, but a good friend does.

    V experienced bike handler, rides every day.

    Came off on Haymarket tram tracks 2 months ago, never even saw it coming.

    Was v thankful the car behind saw it and didn't squish him.

    So, @Dangerous, that's why we are all concerned. It is not simple, its not easy, its not safe, it needs to be resolved.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  17. Dave
    Member

    Loving the contribution from @Dangerous in this topic - it must be one of you guys on a wind up, right?

    I love the idea that 99% is some kind of safe threshold. There are 100 flights out of Edinburgh airport but only one of them crashes off the runway *every day*. Goes to show there's no problem with the airport, it's just a few crap pilots letting it be dangerous, obviously.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  18. Dangerous
    Member

    @Dave
    Why are you inventing the idea that 99% is some kind of safe threshold ?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  19. Duncan
    Member

    My solution to the Haymarket lines is not to cross them at all, but carry on past the station via the lines between the tram platforms - giving pedestrians crossing the right of way, since they don't expect you. This takes me safely into Haymarket Yards.

    I have concluded that I would rather risk a fine, than my toes, collar-bone, wrist, neck, head...

    Posted 9 years ago #
  20. Instography
    Member

    @Dangerous said "I said "Above 99%""

    And you had you had in mind something several orders of magnitude above 99%? Something so large that it would be fanciful of anyone to think that you meant 99%?

    Let's not piss around with pedantry. You seem to think it's the fault of the people having accidents on the tramlines, is that correct? Tramlines are safe if you negotiate them correctly and the accidents that have happened are the fault of the cyclists. That's what I'm getting from your posts. If that's not your view, feel free to state clearly what it is you think.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  21. Dangerous
    Member

    @Wilmington's Cow

    IMHO it is not possible to be in total control and then fall on the tracks.

    The road layout is meaningless (out of your control) in the sense that you cannot change it whilst you ride through the junction.

    IMHO what you MUST do is ride to the prevailing road conditions. You may need to adjust your speed or angle when it's wet or busy traffic or there are lots of pedestrians.

    Going down Haymarket Yards I cross the Eastbound track at say 25 degrees. When it's wet I'll cross more slowly.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  22. Instography
    Member

    Everyone thinks they're in total control until they crash.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  23. Nelly
    Member

    @dangerous

    Sorry but I think you are underestimating your angle of attack.

    25 degrees is inadequate for those tracks and counter to your argument, my preference would not to be approaching slower at that angle - rather going faster/normal speed in order that momentum or a bunny hop got me over.

    Not being rude, but are you an experienced cyclist?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  24. Dave
    Member

    @Dangerous, again I'll use the airport analogy. We have an airport which is standing out from all other airports in that there are a lot of plane crashes.

    Your posts are largely truisms that completely miss the point.

    "The airport layout is meaningless (out of your control) in the sense that you cannot change it whilst you fly down the runway.

    IMHO what you MUST do is fly to the prevailing airport conditions. You may need to adjust your speed or angle etc. etc. etc."

    Yeah, whatever. There are a thousand times more plane crashes at this airport than any other. Miss the point much?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  25. gembo
    Member

    Aside from the somewhat ascerbic tone of some of these posts that has stoked the thread's existence beyond its natural Length I feel safe to conclude that everyone should take care on tramlines and the council has issued advice for tramlines however at the Haymarket junction it is not actually possible to follow their own advice specifically about angle you cross the line. Thus the council is in a position where it can be challenged legally.

    Can we either stop this circular discussion and move on to other detailed analyses or can we come up with a way of making Haymarket layout safer for all cyclists?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  26. Dave
    Member

    I hope this case is won, for the sake of the many additional miles of tram line that are going to be built over the next decade or so.

    The council chose to completely ignore cycling safety in the current line. If this can be demonstrated to have a tangible cost to them in litigation then they will be far more likely to produce sensible designs for the rest of the network.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  27. UtrechtCyclist
    Member

    Does anyone know what kind of proportion of the accidents involving tramlines and cyclists are at Haymarket? Are there two or three hotspots on the line where all the cycle/tramline crashes happen or is it that the whole line is dodgy and should be avoided.

    I've somehow managed to avoid cycling anywhere near the tram tracks thus far but I took a ride down Princes street last weekend and didn't enjoy the tram tracks at all....

    Posted 9 years ago #
  28. gibbo
    Member

    @LivD

    My logic about the tramlines is: if the holes were wide enough and deep enough so that a car tyre would get stuck in it, would car drivers tolerate them? Of course not

    Or, if there was a place in the city where, every couple of days, a car would crash into a bollard, not because it was speeding, but because the driver took a slightly incorrect line through a corner...

    Posted 9 years ago #
  29. chdot
    Admin

    "Are there two or three hotspots on the line where all the cycle/tramline crashes happen or is it that the whole line is dodgy and should be avoided."

    Important question(s).

    "the whole line is dodgy and should be avoided"

    Not really. Potential dangers to be dealt with. There are two basic 'dangers'.

    1) 'falling into the gap' this is 'easy to avoid' except when bus/taxi decides to 'move sideways' this has caused some crashes on Princes Street.

    2) crossing at the 'wrong angle' and being wiped out (surfing related term). I've seen (and filmed) one person falling off and also seen/filmed a 'shimmy'.

    Arguably the first person wasn't as experienced as the second who managed a better degree of control - or was just 'lucky'. BUT the speed of the transition from 'normal' cycling to being on the ground is DRAMATIC - not something that 'skill' can deal with.

    Both those were at Haymarket going west within feet of each other. I suspect these are the places/general area for most falls. I hope that (especially for the court case) people have been able to pinpoint accurately - which 'should' make it easier to consider doing something.

    Clearly damp is a big factor. It rains in Edinburgh.

    Especially when wet, crossing tracks at nearly right angles is recommended/desirable - and impossible at various places - at least without going in odd, 'erratic', directions.

    The main problem with that is (genuine) fear of vehicles behind. Not everyone can/wants to bunny hop, or turn round to check traffic at exactly the point where the greatest concentration of what's ahead is required.

    So some (many?) people avoid - especially Haymarket.

    Should that be 'acceptable'?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  30. SRD
    Moderator

    I find going S-N from the Mound towards Rose street and George St less than pleasant but i've not fallen.

    Posted 9 years ago #

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