CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Roseburn - Canal link (new Dalry route)

(519 posts)
  • Started 7 years ago by MediumDave
  • Latest reply from HankChief

  1. wingpig
    Member

    I was just peering up at that Sauchiebank bit from Russell Road the other day thinking I ought to pop up to peep at it sometime.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  2. gembo
    Member

    Excellent looking route. Well done CEC, keep up the good work.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  3. chdot
    Admin

    "I ought to pop up to peep at it sometime"

    CCE visit some fine weekend?

    Posted 7 years ago #
  4. fimm
    Member

    This looks good and useful.
    However.
    I hope it does not become the "exemplar project".
    Why?
    Because it is a route away from roads. Routes away from roads are all very well, but will never create the network of safe cycle spaces that we really need. This will be shared space. of course, and we will end up with the same complaints about dogs and pedestrians as we have about the rest of the NEPN. And it will probably be covered in chicanes and the wrong kind of tactiles as well.

    There's a high chance that I will never use this, at least not as long as I live where I currently live (near Tynecastle). This link does not link any two places I am likely to go to on the same journey.

    I'll still support it, of course, but the Roseburn to Leith link is more the sort of thing I want to see.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  5. cb
    Member

    @LaidBack

    The previous discussion took place on the "Russell Road to shut(?)" thread, starting here.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  6. Chug
    Member

    I like the design. And it may well be a route away from roads, but if it gets more people cycling, then more people will begin to think "why can't we have more/faster routes?". More people riding bikes means more pressure to build routes to get safely to the shops/work, wherever.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

    "I hope it does not become the "exemplar project".
    Why?
    Because it is a route away from roads."

    That is a sound argument, but I think it would be good for this to be an "exemplar".

    It might be the only way it gets money to make it happen!

    More importantly it will be a high profile way of showing that CEC can be more ambitious than it has been to date.

    It might be true that more off-road infrastructure reinforces some people's ideas that 'bikes shouldn't be on the road'.

    But that's not going to work! Also the extra cyclists using this will add pressure to the need for better on-road/more segregated provision.

    (I hope!)

    Posted 7 years ago #
  8. kaputnik
    Moderator

    "I ought to pop up to peep at it sometime"

    CCE visit some fine weekend?

    It's long been on my list of places to scramble up and nose around.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  9. fimm
    Member

    Well, if Arellcat can get her torpedo (or C. her tricycle) along it, I will be gobsmacked.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  10. SRD
    Moderator

    @fimm all good points, sensibly made.

    i would agree with you more if this was a new path, leading to a park or something but it's role as a 'missing link' makes it far more valuable than you suggest.

    Most other parents (including folk on here) simply will not contemplate riding to russell rd with their kids from south Edinburgh. which means they cannot access any of the NEPN. So they drive to Cramond, or outside of town so their kids can ride their bikes.

    This link, along with the canal-meadows and meadows-innocent links, has the potential to transform the accessibility of the city for kids on bikes.

    That doesn't mean we don't need proper arterial routes that everyone can use not just commuters but also those families, but I do like the use this makes of existing under-utilised spaces - like the dire park behind Lidl.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  11. PS
    Member

    If we're talking about "exemplar" in the context of the Scottish Government competition for cycle facility funding, it shouldn't qualify if the Transport Scotland press release is to be believed:

    The Minister was speaking to over 200 delegates at the Cycling Scotland conference in Edinburgh as he announced details of the new ‘Community Links Plus’ competition for the design and construction of exemplar, on-road, segregated cycle lanes.
    [My emphasis]

    Posted 7 years ago #
  12. chdot
    Admin

    "on-road"

    That's good.

    (and good that it's clear in this context!)

    Posted 7 years ago #
  13. LivM
    Member

    Politics aside, I think this proposal is wonderful. This plus the works at Roseburn would make the whole city much more accessible for me with my son in his trailer. I really don't like the right turn at Roseburn or the Murieston Gauntlet or Dalry Road, with him behind me. Bring it on...

    Posted 7 years ago #
  14. neddie
    Member

    Most other parents (including folk on here) simply will not contemplate riding to russell rd with their kids from south Edinburgh. which means they cannot access any of the NEPN. So they drive to Cramond, or outside of town so their kids can ride their bikes.

    This is what we do at the moment with our under 5s (drive to Cramond so they can go on their bikes, instead of cycling directly from where we live).

    Also, I would love them to be able to get to the NEPN and visit my brother by bike, instead of driving.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  15. Rob
    Member

    it's role as a 'missing link' makes it far more valuable than you suggest

    Although I'm highly unlikely to use this path, I'm pleased to see plans being developed to join up existing off-road infrastructure.

    If they also bridge the gap between WoL/NEPN and Leith Links we'd have uninterrupted Canal->NEPN->Portobello Beach.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  16. cb
    Member

    From one of links above there is a link to an online survey. Lots of space to add comment.

    https://consultationhub.edinburgh.gov.uk/sfc/roseburntounioncanal/consultation/intro/view

    There's a question asking if you'd prefer a bridge over the WAR (at the expense of the play park seemingly). Also a question on whether you'd like a bridge over the mainline (for the comment on that one I put "Build it!").

    Also a cut-out-and-post-back have your say on here:

    http://www.edinburghnp.org.uk/media/376574/roseburn.pdf

    ...which also mentions:

    "A public drop-in session will be held to discuss these proposals at St Brides Community Centre, 10 Orwell Terrace, Edinburgh on 24 November 2015, between 3.00pm and 8.00pm"

    Posted 7 years ago #
  17. LaidBack
    Member

    Thanks CB for link.

    Filled it out in under ten minutes - including some writing in boxes.
    If you do a click through you could do in less than 5 mins.

    Having done the family cycling thing in past I know how much we would have enjoyed this as a break from braving the school run. People that use this will still end up coming out onto roads - so on road continuation of on road routes still need to be improved.
    A path like this should create demand...
    For Lothian Road commuters a cycle path straight along the WAR would be good. Pollution wise I expect vehicle to become cleaner despite VW. Dave Gorman at Uni reckons that Tesla type vehicles will form the traffic jams of the future! Currently £60k though.
    (Tesla coming soon to Multreees walk http://www.teslamotors.com/en_GB/findus/location/store/edinburghmultreeswalk)

    Posted 7 years ago #
  18. fimm
    Member

    I did say "good", "useful", "I'll support it" - I was just expressing a concern that PS's quote puts to rest. As a person without children the need for the link was perhaps less obvious to me.

    I'm still a bit cynical about what it could look like in practice. I hope to be proved wrong!

    Posted 7 years ago #
  19. Chug
    Member

    Here's hoping the new toucans are single stage.

    +1 for the child-friendliness usage. We've used the Redhall Park, Redhall Gardens/Kingsknowe Road North and path from the Longstone Inn to Stenhouse Mill Lane to get from the canal to WoL heading north with a passenger, but it's a roundabout way if you live east of the aqueduct,

    Posted 7 years ago #
  20. Rosie
    Member

    My commute from Roseburn to Fountainbridge & I'm really excited about this. It's a lot of broken nasty bits at the moment.
    Fountainbridge - pot-holed, busy
    Muireston - often backed up, narrow
    Angle Park Terrace - terrible condition, busy, vile junction at the end (I normally go down Ardmillan Terrace - much better condition and straight ahead instead of a right turn into Muireston)
    Telfer subway - a challenge & causes strife with pedestrians

    A join to the NEPN is really significant.
    As someone said on this thread or another the Western Approach Road is ceasing to be an inner city motorway and becoming another street with access, crossings, footways etc. Sad for the bus drivers - they love opening the throttle. However, they'll adjust.

    Just a reminder that the drop in is Tue 24 Nov, 3-8pm at St Brides Community Centre, Orwell Terrace.

    Also do get your responses in.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  21. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Took a prod about at each of the main component parts of the potential route link yesterday, here are some thoughts / observations.

    1 - a bridge across the railway from the end of the Roseburn Path to Sauchiebank is probably a non-starter. Firstly, since the old bridge was demolished, they've electrified the railway, that means raising the height of any new bridge much higher than previous, therefore the embankments at either end, which have already been substantially reduced, would have to be built up higher. They've also lost the piers of the old bridge, and the current track alignment doesn't look to leave space for new piers. At the Roseburn end, the embankment has been cut back firstly when the cycle path was built and again when the tramworks got involved. Also bear in mind the cooncil's desire to run a tram to Granton down the path here. At the Sauchiebank side, there's also an electrical substation in the way.

    Of course there's the option for a much improved route under the railway alongside Russell Road, with a proper segregated route, good lighting etc.

    Moving on, the old railway embankments between Sauchiebank and Dalry Road are largely intact, although heavily overgrown with some substantial trees. There's also evidence of trouble with Japanese Knotweed which might make soil disturbance tricky. the embankments are fairly high, but we managed to access easy enough on foot from Sauchiebank. The height isn't insurmountable, they are very wide so lots of option to zig-zag the path or put in a cutting within it to reduce the gradient.

    Where the bridge (marked "Mid Calder line" on the plans) is required over the railway, it shouldn't be too difficult, the original piers are still there and in good shape, the gap is short and although electrified there's not so much the clearance issue as the other end of the route.

    The bit of embankment to north of the WAR and bounded by Duff Street Lane is again in fairly good repair, it does begin to get narrow at the top as you approach Dalry Road, but overall the embankment is wide, therefore there's the option to built out from the side, or stick in some piles to provide a widened top and there's a fairly wide gap between the tenement and the existing road bridge to fit a new bridge in. Access should also be possible from Duff Street direction, although there isn't a huge amount of space between existing buildings. There's a lot of fly-tipping of old car parts and tyres over the back walls of the garages on Duff Street Lane.

    On the LIDL-side of Dalry Road there would need to be some ground works to both maintain the access from Road Level and also allow the bridge to come through, but nothing that is probably that complex or expensive. The old Depot site where the playparks and Basketball Court now are are flat and ready to be redeveloped to make much better use of the space, and provide some decent, high-quality greenspace for Dalry which lacks a park of its own.

    At the West Approach Road, a toucan is the sensible option, but would require some work to connect at the south (Fountain Park) side of the subway given the bus stops here and also the access ramps up from the Subway and to the bus stop.

    We managed to cycle easily alongside the WAR on the grass towards Morrison Circus. Frankly it's barmy that there isn't a foot/cycle path here already given how easy it would be to do and how useful a link it would be. The worn grass indicates how heavily used a desire line it is, as do the torn-down fences across the WAR where people want to get to the bus stop at the south side but can't be bothered wasting their life with the subway option.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  22. cb
    Member

    @kaputnik, there are plans linnked to on the Consultation Hub page for most of the sections.

    https://consultationhub.edinburgh.gov.uk/sfc/roseburntounioncanal

    E.g. the Sauchiebank section shows a large zigzag. I queried this on my feedback as the path appears to reach the top of the contours very early then the large zigzag is on flat ground, more or less. I suspect this means they would plan to dig out the entire area and re-landscape.

    The Mid Calder railway crossing doesn't use the existing embankments. It goes for a much longer bridge instead.

    Speaking of long bridges, the crossing of the ECLM (!) would require a span almost 20m less than longest section of Newbridge footbridge, so I guess central piers might not be a problem.
    Also, I reckon on a good 17m between the road and the sub station so perhaps not a problem there either.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  23. steveo
    Member

    It strikes me that it would be a lot cheaper and probably more generally beneficial to close Murieston Cres to through traffic and build the whole road up to shared space with priority to peds and cycles. Though I suppose local opposition would kill that.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  24. kaputnik
    Moderator

    @Cb thanks for the links to discrete plans, I had a look through them before responding to the survey.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  25. Rosie
    Member

    I don't think anyone is going to make a case that this wouldn't be used. That route is always busy with cyclists.

    @kaptunik - yeah that desire line by WAR is visible from the bus.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  26. UtrechtCyclist
    Member

    Has anyone been to the consultation yet? It's until eight o'clock at the St brides community centre. I'll probably pop in on the way home. Don't really know what to say besides asking about the canal link.

    @kaputnik, thanks for the analysis, it all looks sensible. Shame that it's not possible to reduce the amount of gradient change, do we think it will be dark and scary in the middle bit?

    Posted 7 years ago #
  27. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Damn, I forgot all about St Brides. :-(

    At least the consultation is on for a while yet. Are any more public viewings planned? Just one seems miserly at best, disingenous at worst.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  28. HankChief
    Member

    I went along (and saw i leaving and UtrectCyclist arrive whilst I was mid flow).

    I spoke to one of the designer who took me through the extensive thought process they had been through to come up with the design.

    All in all I was impressed. It is a key missing link and by extending the NEPN south it will open it up for many more to venture down to the coast.

    I have a couple of suggestions / improvements though.

    Dundee street to the canal will be key.

    The straight middle section will be 4m wide but the wiggly bits at either end only 3m wide. This feels a bit narrow to me. NEPN already gets congested and if you want to be able to cycle alongside someone else (I. E. A child) then 3m won't allow this with oncoming traffic / peds.

    Some of the cross sections showed a 1:1 slope down from the path. It will need some form of protection to stop anyone sliding off.

    The pavement under the edi-gla line should be made wider.

    The entrance to the existing NEPN ramp should be move round the corner to the North so if you are coming from QuietRoute8/9 you don't have to tackle the corners with impatient traffic (one of whom tried to overtake me on the short E-W straight with a oncoming veh coming round the corner)

    Oh, and aparently they have looked into the bridge over the Edi-gla line and it is doable but would cost c. £7m

    Small confession: I might not have helped neighbourhood relations. As I cycled down Orwell terrace to the consultation I slowed trying to look for a parking space for my big bike (only 4 small racks outside). The car behind didn't like me slowing so beeped at me... and then preceeded to park in his development a few yards in front of me.

    Lo & behold he was the next person into the consultation... so I challenged him as to why he beeped me.

    Let's just say we didn't see eye to eye & he didn't stay...

    Posted 7 years ago #
  29. UtrechtCyclist
    Member

    Yes nice to see you Hankchief. I also saw Euan from Spokes (who I don't think is on here), and the council person I spoke most with was Allan Hutcheon, who I thought was excellent.

    The path looked very nice to me. I didn't think of any technical questions to ask, but I had completely misunderstood the gradients before going and they make much more sense now. There's a lot of gradient, but it is essentially as flat as it could be without building a bridge over the other train lines, such a bridge would be great but I'm sure we could all think of better things to do for cycling with 7m.

    I'm struggling to remember the details of other things we discussed. But I think

    1. There will probably be a consultation in the spring about segregated cycle paths on Dundee Street from Fowler Terrace (linking to Harrison Park) all the way to Semple Street (and possibly as far as Lothian Road). This would be one-way on each side of the road

    2. Links to the canal from the Subway/Toucan on WAR would be built sooner, with the Roseburn-WAR project, but they're not certain of the design. They need to decide whether to have only the one-way paths and to have two toucan's very close across Dundee Street (at the end of Gibson Terrace and at the exit of the path from WAR) or to have a section of two way segregation on Dundee Street in addition to one-way segregation on the other side.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  30. Stickman
    Member

    Segregated cycle paths on Dundee Street would be very welcome.

    Feels like (very slow) progress is being made.

    Posted 7 years ago #

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