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"Edinburgh's post-war architecture should be cherished"

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  1. kaputnik
    Moderator

    I remember reading that one of its problems was that it was designed as a corporate headquarters in the early 1980s when the sort of company that might use it was both smaller in overall size than its equivalent now (i.e. it was a national and not an international company) and when that sort of company structured itself with lots of small departments that could work somewhat in isolation. And the building reflected that. It was designed too closely around the needs of a company that no longer exits. It was designed as a single entity that couldn't really be split up into general offices and let by floor. It didn't have enough large, open office space for larger business units. It was too small for large companies and too large for small companies.

    Shame.

    And also look at all that car parking ("three times more than current planning permission")!

    Posted 12 years ago #
  2. chdot
    Admin

    Whatever the architectural merits and 'commercial logic' of it being (now) 'the wrong size', it really is a bit shocking that it's 'economic' to tear down a building built to a high standard (presumably) long before it reached the end of its life expectancy (presumably).

    Posted 12 years ago #
  3. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Think it was built between 1981 and 1986.

    That makes it just younger than me. I hope I am of sufficiently high a standard that I don't need torn down and replaced with newer, smaller versions...

    Posted 12 years ago #
  4. chdot
    Admin

    Not Edinburgh, but a classic example of what can happen if an 'iconic' building can't be found a new purpose -

    http://www.hiddenglasgow.com/StPeters

    Posted 12 years ago #
  5. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Ok, not even I will get sentimental about Weir / Hermiston / Glenalmond Court

    Although the pastel coloured panels looked quite nice when the light caught them.

    At first I thought there were kids in them smashing things, or stripping out wiring / piping (look at the bigger photo, window above third red-panel up from the bottom). But then saw hard hats and fluorescent vests so assume it was the implosion men going about their business. Appeared to be draping wires out of the holes knocked in the exterior panels.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  6. kaputnik
    Moderator

    For anyone who's interested, a fascinating book by Historic Scotland available online as a PDF here; Scotland - Building The Future

    Covers all aspects of post-war achitecture from housing, schools, places of worship, civic buildings and industry.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  7. cb
    Member

    BBC | Why does regeneration create so many ugly buildings?

    "
    For better or worse, the buildings of the 1960s were designed from the inside out. Even the most reviled of blocks contain spacious apartments. Even the most alarming crumbling concrete hulks have residents who will say: "But they're lovely inside."

    The new blocks are designed from the outside in, irregular windows and brightly-coloured cladding hide the tiny, mean proportions and a total lack of planning for human use.
    "

    Posted 12 years ago #
  8. kaputnik
    Moderator

    I read that earlier, cb. The author was far better at putting my thoughts into words than I am :)

    quote - What there is, is a new housing development. Little detached boxes in cul-de-sacs, designed for two purposes - maximising car parking and maximising profit. Each house has a little neo-Georgian porch, what the developers call a "gob-on".

    Posted 12 years ago #
  9. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Another interesting read from Historic Scotland as a free pdf Edinburgh’s Post-War Listed Buildings

    And just realised that my Great Uncle lives in number 8 on the list (page 20). Best get round for some close up shots!

    Posted 12 years ago #
  10. chdot
    Admin

    This seems to be popular in the inter-web world -

    http://facebook.com/lostedinburgh

    Posted 12 years ago #
  11. kaputnik
    Moderator

    I think I've found a new list to get round and photograph. I've already been to quite a few. Certainly before they try knock down the telephone exchange off Pitsligo Road.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  12. Smudge
    Member

    @Kaputnik; "Ok, not even I will get sentimental about Weir / Hermiston / Glenalmond Court"

    I had a flat there (Glenalmond Court) for a little while after finding myself suddenly needing council accomodation, rooms were a reasonable size, soundproofing on the whole pretty good and the view wasn't bad at all. I wont miss it, but it wasn't bad :)

    Got to admit though, they weren't the most attractive buildings from the outside!

    Posted 12 years ago #
  13. kaputnik
    Moderator

    @smudge - despite whatever failings they have (had), my inner sceptic really doesn't think that their replacements will be any better (inside or out) or longer lasting.

    The buildings still look struturally and cosmetically sound and intact. I suppose they're just too out of fashion.

    the view wasn't bad at all

    I imagine the view, from the right flat, could be amazing!

    Posted 12 years ago #
  14. Morningsider
    Member

    I suspect the fact the "ugly" but generously proportioned post war housing was mainly built by the public sector while the jauntily designed but meanly sized 80's onwards housing built by the private may go some way towards explaining the effect discussed in the BBC article.

    Changes in design also reflect a general move away from communal living and attempts to level out society in the post-war period. It's easy to criticise post war housing developmets and new towns, but they were built with the best of intentions - giving less well-off people previously unobtainable comforts (inside toilets!) and good sized properties. The real problems were the use of poor quality materials, an initial lack of community facilities and failure of landlords to maintain properties. The best of such schemes have thrived and aren't thought of as "60's" developments, a tag only normally applied to failed estates.

    We really need a new housing revolution in Scotland or we are in danger of the slow development of modern slums, i.e. large concentrations of poor quality, private rented housing largely used by young and less well paid workers.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  15. kaputnik
    Moderator

    However "ugly" or "eyesore" the Weir of Hermiston flats up there look after 50 years, I seriously doubt the huge developments around Western Harbour and Granton Harbour (or whatever fancy "quarter" name they go by now) will look any better after 10 years. And looking at the structure of the older flats now that the skeleton is beginning to be revealed, they look seriously heavily engineered.

    Like you, Mornignsider, I (pessimistically perhaps) think this sort of history is destined to repeat itself with a lot of very recent developments. Even developments that are only 3 or 4 years old and at least looked clean and tidy when they were finished are now beginning to look tired and ugly - rust streaks down the side where boiler vents are, mould/mildew/moss growing where damp collects, coloured concrete / mock stone cladding staining, double glazing / glass block walls filling with condensation. And the finishing on the cladding always looked cheap and rushed - in panels with seams down the main face of the structure that looked like the join was filled with white silicon sealant, and lots of little plastic vents sticking out, I presume to allow air to circulate into the cavity.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  16. Arellcat
    Moderator

    http://facebook.com/lostedinburgh

    Tut tut. I recognise some of those photos from the Scran database, with the copyright restriction conveniently chopped off the bottom!

    The Portobello Pool set is fantastic, though.

    I was poking around Lochend the other day in the Butterfly development, and some of the new flats built no more than four years ago are already showing signs of age, with salt leaching out of the orangey-brown breeze blocks. Another 30 years and who knows what state they'll be in?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  17. chdot
    Admin

    "The real problems were the use of poor quality materials, an initial lack of community facilities and failure of landlords to maintain properties."

    I know this thread is about 'post war', but it's probably worth looking a bit further back. For instance the housing in Craigmillar was (I believe) designed and built to a high standard. However a new community with the same population as Musselburgh was created without all the facilities of a town of that size.

    I know someone whose family was moved from the slums of the High Street to this 'brave new world' but disliked the 'open spaces' so much they moved back to the South Side!

    Housing maintenance/management could have been better and whether mass demolition was a good idea... I think it's safe to say that some of the newer houses are not as robust.

    Incidentally the architect of Craigmillar also designed the (largely abandoned) police boxes.

    "We really need a new housing revolution in Scotland"

    Little chance of that. Irrespective of 'politics' and 'money', not sure there's too much consensus of what 'needs to be done'.

    Too many vested interests. Too much belief that 'everyone' wants a 3 bedroomed box (however small) with a bit of lawn. They probably also want ones with super insulation and low running costs but...

    Wayne Hemingway seems to have achieved something.

    Talking of WH - this just happened!

    Posted 12 years ago #
  18. chdot
    Admin

    "Tut tut. I recognise some of those photos from the Scran database, with the copyright restriction conveniently chopped off the bottom!"

    Seems so -

    "
    If you'd like to see the original sources of many of the images, then I'd recommend the following websites:

    http://www.rcahms.gov.uk
    http://www.scran.ac.uk
    http://www.capitalcollections.org.uk
    http://www.edinphoto.org.uk
    "

    http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Virtual-crowd-gathers-to-look.6820821.jp?CommentPage=1&CommentPageLength=1000#6350557

    Posted 12 years ago #
  19. Klaxon
    Member

    The above linked websites, with the exception of edinphoto, are all self serving government businesses that make their money selling access to out of copyright images. The council's one is a little better, bur rhcams and scran seek to restrict any access to subscribers only and from what I've tried to use of them in the past, are pretty hard to find what you want on.

    The Facebook page is well laid out with simple geographic areas and quick to browse through. Instead of going tut tut at the creators why not ask why the aforementioned organisations aren't doing similar populist galleries on their own websites?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  20. chdot
    Admin

    "selling access to out of copyright images"

    Yes, I've often wondered about 're-copyrighting' out of copyright photos/maps.

    edinphoto seems to do the same - though no access restrictions.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  21. SRD
    Moderator

    @Klaxon - notwithstanding your good points about access and useability, we still need quality archiving of digital images, which takes on board concerns about longevity and cataloguing. FB is never going to provide either of those.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  22. chdot
    Admin

    "we still need quality archiving of digital images, which takes on board concerns about longevity and cataloguing. FB is never going to provide either of those."

    Yes to the first sentence, not sure about the second.

    The whole business of 'digital archiving' is developing. British Library is archiving some web sites and there's http://wayback.archive.org which is far from comprehensive, but has some web sites that no longer exist - or versions that have since been re-edited - not in any 'sinister' sense, but a lot of sites take down 'old stuff' when they have something new.

    FB has been criticised for being hard to delete from and You Tube (sometimes) deletes stuff where the copyright is clearly not held by the uploader.

    Then there is Flickr, with lots of interesting photos taken by all sorts of people (and some by others - not the uploader) randomly 'catalogued'.

    It's clear that this particular FB page has caught the imagination of a lot of people - so perhaps something 'better' will develop.

    The whole business of copyright remains a minefield - with a battle between those who think 'everything' should be free and those who actually try to make a living as originators - words, photos, music etc.

    Will the Herald stop printing before the Scotsman - and will either survive 'in digital form' (discuss).

    Will the web run for ever?

    Is the future enough electricity to run a couple of light bulbs (at home) and the rest running server farms and universal free wifi??!!

    Or maybe 'all' electricity will be reserved for electric cars!

    Posted 12 years ago #
  23. chdot
    Admin

    "
    DaveHenniker:

    Lost Edinburgh? Finding more of my work credited to others  http://t.co/2I5lb0w http://t.co/364vAIC #copyrightviolation

    Original Tweet: http://twitter.com/DaveHenniker/status/104829685648736256
    "

    Posted 12 years ago #
  24. Cyclingmollie
    Member

    ...and they've used Peter Standen's Castle Rock as the main image without crediting the artist (who can be found selling his wonderful prints behind the One World Cafe at St John's.

    Klaxon: "The council's one is a little better" - the Museums and Galleries section of CC was put together by a single qualified archivist working 14 hours a week for a low wage paid for by MGS on a one year contract. Have you looked at the quality of the descriptions? You might be able to crowdsource that. But I have my doubts.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  25. chdot
    Admin

    "
    DaveHenniker:

    @CyclingEdin Lost Edinburgh are fixing things and will be back soon. Thanks to David McLean who's been overwhelmed by unexpected popularity!

    Original Tweet: http://api.twitter.com/1/DaveHenniker/status/105182462476423169
    "

    Posted 12 years ago #
  26. Do these count?


    23_3 by blackpuddinonnabike, on Flickr


    23_1 by blackpuddinonnabike, on Flickr


    23_6 by blackpuddinonnabike, on Flickr

    Posted 12 years ago #
  27. chdot
    Admin

    No but yes.

    It's what you might call industrial heritage, which is generally undervalued.

    - like the Granton Gas Towers.

    Obviously some people think such things are ugly and others will try to stop (almost) anything from being removed.

    Certainly in a city like Edinburgh it's easier to 'airbrush' anything that might be called industrial.

    I'm not aware of any attempts to conserve the remains of or mark the sites of the Water of Leith mills (about 80) apart from the odd bits at Redhall and Bonnington. The survival of Stenhouse Mill is an anomaly.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  28. kaputnik
    Moderator

    'Eyesore' tower blocks to be demolished

    Three blocks of flats in Sighthill are to come down as part of Edinburgh Council's regeneration plans.

    (Those would be the three I photographed above. Glad I did now!)

    Will be a fine site and also a fine one to film / photograph for those of us with nice cameras. Our offices will get a good view if it's during work hours.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  29. chdot
    Admin

    "if it's during work hours"

    Tends to be done at weekends.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  30. kaputnik
    Moderator

    I better not be working that weekend then because that part of the office points at the Bypass!

    Posted 12 years ago #

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