CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Leith Walk - next stage

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  1. Tulyar
    Member

    NB In Montreal the campaigners simply paid their $.025c for every parking bay for a full block and created a bike route, sound a possible guerilla action - block off parking and stick on parking tickets (so you've paid for the space nem conand exercised the 11th commandment nunc nostri est

    It might combine with a Park-ing day when parking bays are converted in to mini parks.

    A possible crowd sourced survey might be to check out just how much area of the carriageway outside is actually needed to fulfill the statutory obligation of a means to pass & repass traffic. My reckoning is that less than 50% of the street surface area in Edinburgh is actually used for moving traffic around,

    So we could get a 50% reduction in the amount of carriageway demanding repairs etc and a huge area of ground which can be used to provide rainfall attenuation, and 'air conditioning' through generation of oxygen (photosynthesis) to reduce Edinburgh's carbon footprint, and cooling through the latent heat of evapouration of water - as it is sweated by growing plants.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  2. sallyhinch
    Member

    On combining parking and cycle lanes - there are some photos here http://www.hembrowcyclingholidays.com/comparisons.html which compare typical UK streets with Dutch equivalents. There are quite a few with on-street parking in the NL - and nice wide paths alongside them. The width is key though - make them too narrow and the door thing becomes an issue

    Posted 11 years ago #

  3. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Is CEC simply being not ambitious enough? Three random 'big' streets in Amsterdam:

    Overtoom

    Weesperstraat

    Hoofdweg

    Posted 11 years ago #

  4. sallyhinch
    Member

    Interesting that the bike path on the last one does go on the outside of the parking (you have to scoot forward a few yards) - but it's wide enough that presumably you can avoid the doors

    Posted 11 years ago #

  5. ARobComp
    Member

    Surely *fingers crossed* the assumption that the fact they have to cross over this segregated area to park reduces the risk of them opening the door without checking?

    Of course this is probably a fantasy.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  6. fimm
    Member

    @sallyhinch Interesting, thank you. On the third and fourth ones down, it looks like there's potential for conflict between people accessing cars and cyclists. Is there more respect for cycle lanes by pedestrians in the Netherlands, does anyone know? I like using the railway path from Russell Road out to Crammond Brig, but you quite rightly have to be very wary of pedestrians on a route like that.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  7. kaputnik
    Moderator

    @fimm unsure about Netherlands, but just back from a weekend cycling around Berlin and the tolerance between cyclists / pedestrians and vehicles was pleasurable. Apart from the blind obeying of all red lights, riding standards were pretty low (as in wobbling all over the road / lane / pavement) and little in the way of signalling or checking shoulders etc., but everyone seemed to expect to give way to and/or get out the way of the other party, so it all kind of works. It helps that most of the bikes can't get above 10mph unless you have a downhill (and there aren't really any of those in Berlin!)

    I was surprised by number of pedestrians who, upon realising they were walking in the on-pavement cycle lanes, would get out the way and say sorry.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  8. shuggiet
    Member

    In our two week tour of West Netherlands this summer the cycling lanes were well respected by both pedestrians and cars. Delivery vans even parked in inconvenient places for themselves, to avoid parking in cycling lanes! Often the pedestrian pavements were separated by slightly raised pavements from the cycle lane. In Amsterdam the cycle lanes were often so busy with bikes that pedestrians wouldn't walk in them, treating them more like roads than cycle lanes. In the countryside (dunes) there were minimal shared use paths, with separate pathways created for walkers which were not used by any cyclists that I could see.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  9. sallyhinch
    Member

    @fimm - Pedestrians do pay enormous respect to cycle lanes, mainly because there are so many bikes so they're not that inviting to walk on. Bikes do seem to be top of the tree in the NL - people on foot just get out of their way and I'm not sure I'd like to be unable to ride a bike if I lived there - you'd learn pretty quick!

    In places where pedestrians & cyclists mix, like the centre of Groningen, people do seem very adept at avoiding each other, whether on foot or on bike, and nobody seems to mind a bike weaving through a stream of pedestrians crossing or vice versa, probably because everyone cycles so there's no us and them and a better understanding of what the bike will do

    Posted 11 years ago #

  10. crowriver
    Member

    Delivery vans even parked in inconvenient places for themselves, to avoid parking in cycling lanes!

    Whereas here they take an almost sadistic delight in deliberately blocking the cycle lane, pavement or road. This is our sully wee island, and we do things differently from the continentals.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  11. chdot
    Admin

    For @PJMatthews

    From Private Eye

    Posted 11 years ago #

  12. minus six
    Member

    Ain't no bungle going on.

    Fast cars and railings, that's the drill.

    Surely its not beyond the wit of someone to get on here with an alias to name and shame the influential senior engineers responsible for holding us all back.

    Then maybe we could project their probable retirement dates, and start a countdown.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  13. chdot
    Admin

    http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/latest-news/clean-up-plan-as-leith-walk-named-dirtiest-area-in-city-1-2514635

    Posted 11 years ago #

  14. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Bike League (@BikeLeague)
    11/09/2012 21:35
    Everyone wins: Crashes that cause injury down 63% on @prospect_park W. when cycle track added, speeding way down #prowalkprobike #bikenyc

    "


    Don't know if crashes/injuries have been significant on Leith Walk - many bicycle riders avoid it, other people are even put off cycling by such roads.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  15. cc
    Member

    I certainly avoided it back when I cycled between Leith and the King's Buildings, because taxi drivers used to yell at me for cycling in the bus lane. Apparently the green lanes were really a taxi speedway.

    Anyway, I'm glad that at least New York is reaping the benefit of sensible transport policies. Good for them.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  16. PS
    Member

    The greenway issue of people on bikes holding up buses and/or taxis is another reason why there should be a separate segregated cyclelane on all main commuter arteries.

    By using them as a proxy for cyclelanes, the Council has managed to stick three modes of transport with very different movement patterns into the same lane, slowing each of them down as a result. Separate provision for cyclists would take that conflict away, which would be a win for angry taxi drivers and frustrated bus passengers/drivers. Something for everyone to get behind.

    Improved infrastructure for cycling does not only benefit those who ride bikes.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  17. DaveC
    Member

    I don't agree that Taxi drivers should get to use the green lanes. They are just cars who don't pay for parking as they are (almost) constantly moving. I know the Black cabs have to buy the plate which is not cheap (I heard as much as £50k) but does that mean they are buying the right to use their own lane? Does that mean if I pay £50k I can get my own lane too? Actually this sounds like Stephen Fry who bought a taxi so he could get round London easier. At least busse take more passengers than taxis, but I agree with PS about green lanes being a copout for coucils to instantly say they had x00 miles of cycle lanes when they were introduced.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  18. wingpig
    Member

    Despite the occasional bit of homicide, bullying or shouted ire the registered hailable taxi is much less of a problem than the private car. Buying or renting or subscribing to the right to display a licensed hackney carriage plate is paying for the right to use public transport lanes in exchange for serving as a means of public transport. They might occasionally get slightly in the way when they pull a surprise U-turn or stop to pick someone up in a really stupid place or block a cycle lane exit by stopping in a rank which is already full beyond its stated capacity but they're only slightly contributing to existing congestion rather than causing it, like private cars.

    Imagine how frustrated taxis would be if they weren't allowed to use bus lanes, though they'd be easier to spot than existing frustrated badly-driven private hire cars.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  19. Kim
    Member

    The two main issues with the redevelopment of Leith Walk are parking at the bottom end and the roundabouts at the top. The parking is the easier issue to deal with...

    Posted 11 years ago #

  20. PS
    Member

    Assuming any cyclelane on Leith Walk would be designed to convey people riding bikes from Leith to the city centre in a direct and efficient manner, the roundabouts issue could be easily dealt with by having a segregated cycle lane on the north/west side of the road. There'd be ample space for this facility to bypass the London Road roundabout on the west side and then go along the wee lane at Picardy Place in front of the Holiday Inn/The Street, before receiving a cyclelane specific traffic light cycle at a reconfigured junction at the top of Broughton Street to go onto York Place and from there onto George Street...

    I think that was pretty much the route that the tram was going to take?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  21. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    "Actually this sounds like Stephen Fry who bought a taxi so he could get round London easier."

    I think that's actually an urban myth (that you can drive anywhere by buying a taxi, not that Fry owns a taxi, which he obviously does).

    In Edinburgh, for instance, a taxi without a passenger is not allowed to use the bus lane.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  22. Dave
    Member

    Yes, but in Edinburgh even private motors can use the bus lane, and if they are fined expect to have their fines cancelled, so...

    Posted 11 years ago #

  23. PS
    Member

    Some related docs on this and CEC's transport policy in general at Items 6.4 and 7 here.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  24. Dave
    Member

    "The Cycle Forum is currently held 3-4 times per year to discuss the Council's policies to encourage cycling as a mode of transport. It has traditionally been chaired by the Transport Convener and includes representatives of Spokes, the CTC, CityCyclingEdinburgh.info, Sustrans, Cycling Scotland and relevant departments of the Council."

    Orly?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  25. chdot
    Admin

    Oys

    Posted 11 years ago #

  26. PS
    Member

    Whilst it's nice to see the Council has a cycle forum that it may merge into an Active Travel forum, does it have any sort of "liveable city" agenda/vision (Gehl-style) that this then feeds into?

    I can't help feeling that as long as these sort of things are kept in silos with an aim to keep individual interest groups happy (or at least pacified), a coordinated overarching goal of making Edinburgh a nicer place to live and work is only going to be achieved by accident.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  27. chdot
    Admin

    "I can't help feeling that as long as these sort of things are kept in silos with an aim to keep individual interest groups happy..."

    Lot of truth in that.

    I have been on the Cycle Forum since its inception. Its usefulness/effectiveness has varied - partly depending on which councillors chaired it and how keen they were.

    Somehow during the period he chaired it, Cllr. Mackenzie actually made it quite effective in taking some of the 'cyclists' 'aspirations' and making them policy. He was keen on 20mph zones and the 5% budget 'for cycling'.

    I think Jim Orr is even more keen, and hope he can be effective.

    Over the summer some of his remarks (and those of his 'line manager' Cllr Hinds) - over things like Leith Walk - have been interpretable as 'can't upset the (motoring) status quo too much'.

    I'm not clear if it will definitely become an ActiveTravel forum - I hope it will - it will make the silo a bit bigger.

    Cycle campaigners have been pretty successful in Edinburgh (relatively). Pedestrians are even more ignored in policy terms. There are already too many conflicts (and potential ones) between people on bikes, and those walking.

    Better if they work together and push the message that cars (parked or moving) have a disproportionate amount of the available space.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  28. crowriver
    Member

    does it have any sort of "liveable city" agenda/vision (Gehl-style) that this then feeds into?

    Gehl architects were commissioned by CEC to look at exactly this. Report/presentation came out last year: Edinburgh Revisited - Public Space Public Life

    The report was discussed, but I can't remember what came of it. Probably some polite noises and not much else. No idea if the current Council coaltion are paying this any heed whatsoever: the transport policy seems to be firefighting against reactionary campaigns of one kind or another. The continuing trams saga doesn't help - it really feels like Hinds & Co. are trying not to 'frighten the horses' (ie. motorists) too much...

    Posted 11 years ago #

  29. chdot
    Admin

    Someone's told me there was a 'consultation exercise' last week in Dalmeny St about Leith Walk.

    Anyone know anything about it?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  30. DdF
    Member

    @crowriver Re. followon from the Gehl report, see http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/documents/members-campaigning/edinburgh/princes-st-city-centre/

    @chdot Re. Leith Walk meeting recently - Cllr Jim Orr chairing - spokes was at it; also Kim from Pedal on Parliament and Ally from Greener Leith. What we learned was that Council ideas are far less advanced than we had thought - there is no draft plan, or anything like it. They hope to come up with a draft plan in November - this will then be consulted with groups representing various interests (including walk, bike, bus, business) after which there will be a full public consultation. They appeared to be taking cycling seriously. If anything their thoughts seem to be heading vaguely in the direction of some segregated sections and some cycle lanes. The Walk narrows significantly as it goes down. A lot of discussion about loading/parking and business needs/wants. It was recognised that uphill at London Rd rbt is one of the most difficult problems. Signalising the rbt would cost £2.5m apparently, so is not feasible.

    Posted 11 years ago #

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