CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Cycling News

Cyclist dies in Olympic media bus crash

(91 posts)

  1. sallyhinch
    Member

    It seems to me that if helmets didn't exist, the roads lobby would have invented them simply because nothing divides cyclists faster and keeps them from uniting around lobbying for what they really need. It will be a huge shame if this poor chap's death descends into a debate about what somebody else said was or was not on his head instead of about the road design and traffic flow policies that put him and a bus on a collision course.

    I wonder if we could all agree to ignore the whole debate and stick to the real story? Even if the media are determined to distract us with 'ooh look, helmet law'.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  2. crowriver
    Member

    So how exactly was a helmet going to save the poor soul when a bus drove over his midriff?

    Wiggo should have refused to answer the question out of respect for the deceased, rather than pander to media pressure.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  3. Baldcyclist
    Member

    Forget about helmets, really, this person has tragically died from what appears (from the eye witness account) to have been a poor decision.

    Making sure that cyclists know of the dangers of undertaking large vehicles is a far more important issue than whether someone is wearing a helmet or not! People get killed undertaking large vehicles, they don't get killed because of their choice of headgear.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  4. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Surprised to hear a soundbite from Wiggo ,calling for helmets to be compulsery in relation to this story?

    First bit yes - second bit, well unless things have changed since the story broke, it's just not clear from the article in question exactly what question Wiggins was answering and if, at the time, he was even aware of the tragedy. The story didn't hit Twitter until just before 9PM and c. 10PM on mainstream media.


    Wiggo should have refused to answer the question out of respect for the deceased, rather than pander to media pressure.

    It's entirely plausible that Wiggins was responding to a general question about cycling safety and not the accident in question.

    He's proved he's quite a media-savvy guy during the tour, but also proved that he's happy to speak his mind and hold his own opinions. Compulsory helmet laws aside, I found it hard to disagree with his sentiments. We don't live in cycling utopia and I felt exactly the same exasperation with the guy no-handing along Broomhouse path trying to light up a cigarette and almost taking me off my bike, or the guy trying to text on a touch-screen along Slateford Road and missing the turn into Robbie Avenue as Wiggins does with cyclists more bothered in their iPod or wobbling dangerously on and off the road on a Boris bike.

    At the end of the day, focus should not be on what Wiggins did or didn't say - the man is a professional cyclist, not a safety advocate or a campaigner. There was a rather wide analogy I read saying askign Wiggins about cycle safety is rather like asking Steve Redgrade for his opinion on Costa Concordia.

    Also the helmet argument as other points out is also irrelevant - left-turning large vehicles are the biggest danger to cyclists on our roads. There's clearly almost minimal action being taken by our powers that be to make junction design safer. The focus should be on that - no amount of helmets will save you if you're dragged under wheels of a left-hook. It's a horrible fact, but it's true. Currently the only real way to avoid the scenario is to never risk going up the inside of a bus or LGV if there's any chance that the thing may be about to turn across you - and all too many people still persist in doing it, be it through ignorance or misplaced bravado.

    The focus must be on cycling safety in the wider sense. Wiggins has ultimately stuck his head about the parapet and said he doesn't think that the status quo is safe. Our appalling cyclist road death statistics seem to support that point of view. It would be nice to be able to salvage something positive from a sad situation (not that I think you can trust the press to do it). If multi-Olympic medal winnning, most successful professional British cyclist thinks our roads are dangerous, make it a call to action for change.

    As a footnote, Wiggins rode helmetless and no-handed on his TT bike down the finishing straight of the course yesterday, so he's clearly not averse to such things in a safe, controlled, traffic-free environment.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  5. minus six
    Member

    Quoting a national radio presenter this morning:

    "Bradley Wiggins has just won the Tour de France, so he should know a thing or two about cycle safety"

    Cav talks concisely about the need for strict liability, yet Brad mumbles about ipods and helmets.

    Hopefully he comes out with a more considered message today to redress the balance.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  6. PS
    Member

    @bax And Cav has also said you should not wear an ipod while cycling. Don't know if he was speaking clearly or mumbling at the time though...

    We're back in the territory of selective quoting, which doesn't really help anyone apart from professional internet arguers.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

    Of course there is another way of looking at things -

    It's easy to criticise BW for what he said, how he said it, when he said it.

    What he (probably) meant - and more or less explicitly said - was 'OK let's have legislation on helmets and earphones 'for' cyclists and once that is in place - thereby showing that cyclists are 'responsible' - sort everything else out that affects cycle safety'.

    I would say that was naive.

    IF helmet compulsion was the only way to get 'everything else sorted' I might grudgingly agree that it was worth supporting.

    Of course it would be impossible to get any sort of 'guarantee' in advance, plus the evidence from elsewhere is that 'more people cycling reduces accidents involving people on bikes'.

    The long running debate is 'how to get more people cycling' - Armistead, Wiggins, Pendleton, Hoy (and others) are getting more people cycling. Most will probably buy a helmet without even thinking about it as 'controversial'.

    Some will brave (that's just a word - not a reinforcing stereotype that 'cycling is dangerous'...) the roads and 'learn' how to deal with current infrastructure and traffic, others will stick to Sustrans routes and quiet roads (nothing wrong with that) others may give up - for various reasons.

    It's GOOD that BW is concerned about people who cycle on non-closed roads. He may believe that compulsory helmet legislation is a good thing. He could be right.

    I hope he doesn't become the poster man for helmets.

    I hope he is not frightened back into his shell by 'cycle campaigners'.

    I'm sure he will be getting lots of 'advice' on Twitter (including from me) and British Cycling and Sky etc about what to do.

    A great opportunity may be lost, not due to something he said but because of the way he was encouraged to say something and the consequent media reporting (first item on BBC Radio 4 9:00 News).

    So, well done Wiggo DON'T just stick to riding your bike.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  8. PS
    Member

    Here's the thing:

    I can't fault Wiggins for having an opinion. I may not agree with it, but that's his prerogative.

    Everyone's got their own opinion on road safety and what needs to be done to make cycling safer. It's no surprise that a professional road cyclist, who spends almost all of his working time wearing a helmet, thinks that wearing a helmet may be a good thing. Wiggins probably doesn't do a lot of cycling down to the shops...

    However, the principle line of his comments is that something needs to be done to make cycling in the UK safer in general. That's a general debate and something that all cyclists can get behind and *that's* what people should be pushing now, not the usual stone throwing, flaming and sulking. The standard line of reactions has got safe cycling nowhere in the past.

    The way the media works in the UK, sportsmen and women (especially the succesful ones) tend to be given a say on things whether they want to or not. Have the lieis of the CTC etc thought of this, been proactive and approached British cyclists to get them onside, or do they prefer firefighting?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  9. chdot
    Admin

    "

    LondonCyclingCampaig (@london_cycling)

    02/08/2012 09:46

    Ruckholt Rd is known danger zone for cyclists made worse by Olympics. Helmet debate is damaging diversion from real issues

    "

    Posted 11 years ago #
  10. Min
    Member

    This is the lead story on the BBC website for the England section.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-19090898

    "Wiggins said forcing cyclists to take precautions would make the roads safer."

    Exactly how will that make the roads safer? Now that the politicians have clear leadership from Wiggins that no cyclist can ever be killed while wearing a helmet then great - making helmets compulsory is all they need to do.

    What a f*cking moron. That is my opinion and I am entitled to it.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  11. "Now that the politicians have clear leadership from Wiggins that no cyclist can ever be killed while wearing a helmet then great - making helmets compulsory is all they need to do."

    I would imagine that they'd put a bit more thought into it than that (and have, and have rejected it in the past) - I think Wiggins is being credited with a little too much political clout there.

    But yes, opinions are valid, even those you disagree with, cos we ain't in a police state (which likely would have compulsory helmet laws).

    Posted 11 years ago #
  12. mgj
    Member

    Kaputnik wrote "Currently the only real way to avoid the scenario is to never risk going up the inside of a bus or LGV if there's any chance that the thing may be about to turn across you - and all too many people still persist in doing it, be it through ignorance or misplaced bravado."

    And what is the vast bulk of 'cycling provision' in the UK, but some red paint that encourages cyclists to do just that. The rational response to this sad death is not to call for helmets but to remove the red paint and the laughable QBC and its ilk (since parking restrictions are not being enforced on it).

    Posted 11 years ago #
  13. Morningsider
    Member

    Politicians almost never think about cycling. They certainly never think about cycle helmets. No politician is talking about making cycle helmets compulsory. No serious politician would want to introduce such a law as it would make them seem too much of a nerd to other politicians - a combination of bikes and nanny-statism being political poison. Politicians will want to associate themselves with gold medals, but have never shown the slightest interest in anything sportspeople have to say.

    I still stand by my offer to eat a cycle helmet (including full-face downhill style) should a law making the wearing of cycle helmets compulsory ever be passed in the UK.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  14. chdot
    Admin

    "
    His comments came within hours of victory in the 44km time trial after a 28-year-old man was killed by a shuttle bus on the edge of the Olympic Park in Stratford last night.

    "

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3495247.ece

    Posted 11 years ago #
  15. Bhachgen
    Member

    Like many I was disappointed with Wiggins' comments and how they are being reported. But I know full well that the media will have picked up on a single line and we don't have the context.

    It's completely unfair for anyone to suggest that just because Wiggins can make a bike go fast this doesn't mean he has any understanding of cyclists' safety on the road. Where do you think he trains day in day out? He probably spends more hours cycling on the road on a weekly basis than virtually any member of this forum. Yes he lives in a wee Lancashire village with miles of quiet lanes on his doorstep. But you can't get to the hilly roads of Bowland and Pendle that he uses for training without getting involved in some pretty nasty multi-lane motorway roundabouts around Preston and Blackburn.

    I hope he does use his now massive profile to throw his weight behind safety issues in the way that Cav has. Let's give him a chance rather than jumping on a single comment in a single press conference during what must be the most daunting, emotional, exhausting fortnight of his life.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  16. Dave
    Member

    @Bhachgen - the evidence he doesn't understand safety is right there in front of us, in his comments on the subject. Around 50% of cyclist fatalities in London involve being dragged under the wheels of long/heavy vehicles.

    Nothing Wiggins mentions would have the slightest effect on that - if two cyclists are riding side by side, one with all the gear (but no headphones) and one in normal clothes listening to the radio, they'll both be equally dead after an HGV wheel goes over them.

    As I suggested to him by tweet, perhaps we could start by making it illegal to drive a long vehicle that isn't fitted with adequate mirrors - that way the driver has no excuse for missing a cyclist whatever they're wearing/doing.

    But no, once again we have this pathetic victim blaming. "Wiggins said forcing cyclists to take precautions would make the roads safer." - it could easily have been "Wiggins said forcing drivers to take responsibility for fitting detectors is the only answer" instead...

    Very sad. Cavendish has demonstrated that professional riders /can/ have a good grasp of the issues but no, just spending lots of hours riding your bike doesn't make you any more of a road safety expert than spending many hours speeding on the motorway would do.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  17. Has anyone here seen the entire interview, with quotes in context?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  18. amir
    Member

    "Safety call for Cumbernauld's Wilderness Brae after three die"
    BBC News

    As in most days, the road system is associated with yet more tragedy.

    It is noticeable that following road incidents when drivers are injured or die the call is often to improve the infrastructure, whereas that is rarely true when it is cyclists who are injured/die.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  19. Tom
    Member

    Wilmington's Cow: "Has anyone here seen the entire interview, with quotes in context?"

    Nope.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  20. amir
    Member

    "we have this pathetic victim blaming"

    It would be so good if the balance of responsibility could be shifted. But the same fear of nanny-statism that hopefully will stop helmets being compulsory (and hopefully some facts and rational thought) stops any serious attempt to make dangerous driving seems as antisocial as e.g. smoking. Dangerous driving is prevalent - witness the distances between cars on the bypass or the number of cars exceeding speed limits.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  21. chdot
    Admin

    Most(?) quotes in Times link above, also in this -

    "
    "Wiggins's ride both in the Olympics and the Tour de France will no doubt inspire more people to take up cycling. To ensure their safety CTC believes that the priority should be on improving the road network and the criminal justice system, not laws that impose restrictions on cyclists."

    "

    http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/wiggins-wades-into-unwinnable-helmet-debate/013440

    Posted 11 years ago #
  22. chdot
    Admin

    Helmets due for discussion on World at One

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01l8n71

    Posted 11 years ago #
  23. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Spokes CycleCampaign (@SpokesLothian)

    02/08/2012 12:39

    Times straw poll on helmet compulsion ... Please vote

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3495247.ece

    @CyclingEdin @CyclingScotland @CyclenationUK #PoP28 #cyclesafe

    "

    Posted 11 years ago #
  24. Cyclist
    Member

    "...I'm probably a bit too tipsy to start talking about this now..."
    - Bradley Wiggins, seconds before voicing his view on helmet compulsion

    Posted 11 years ago #
  25. chdot
    Admin

    "

    LondonCyclingCampaig (@london_cycling)

    02/08/2012 13:29

    Our response on @guardianeco to Wiggins helmet comments - pls let's focus debate on genuine solutions http://bit.ly/MACtxG

    "

    Posted 11 years ago #
  26. RJ
    Member

    Well, yes. It's all a bit like asking Steve Redgrave for an infomred view on maritime safety ...

    Posted 11 years ago #
  27. wee folding bike
    Member

    Or asking Rangers for tax advice.

    <Ducks>

    Posted 11 years ago #
  28. chdot
    Admin

    "
    David Arditti (@VoleOSpeed)

    02/08/2012 13:50

    Excellent resource by @steinsky: all you needed to know about cycle helmets, but were too afraid to ask:

    http://waronthemotorist.wordpress.com/2012/08/02/all-those-helmets-posts-in-one-place

    "

    Of course it's not about helmets.

    It's about infrastructure (theoretical and actual), existing laws (and their enforcement) and public, police, press and politicians' attitudes.

    Sadly Bradley reignited the sideburner.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  29. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Carlton Reid (@carltonreid)

    02/08/2012 14:23

    Brian Cookson of British Cycling says org doesn't recommend compulsory cycle helmets. Boris ditto. http://bbc.in/N522I8

    "

    Posted 11 years ago #
  30. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Bradley Wiggins (@bradwiggins)

    02/08/2012 14:24

    Just to confirm I haven't called for helmets to be made the law as reports suggest

    "

    _____________________________

    Posted 11 years ago #

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