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Riding through the Dalmeny Estate because of closure of the A90 path

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    This thread is to replace -

    "
    So two days into the closure of the A90 path for upgrading and it appears SOME Dalmeny Staff and residents are already getting annoyed at cyclist using Lord Rosebury's roads.

    "

    http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10238

    That one got sidelined into a discussion about the 'meaning of signs'.

    This one is to report incidents - good and bad - and any responses people have had from the organisations they have contacted.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  2. minus six
    Member

    I had to cart a large futon by trailer back to the Kingdom mid-morning, so a good indicator of general estate vehicle tolerance.

    Pleased to report that all was sweetness and light, slow and considerate overtaking, other than one impatient passing acceleration by a volvo estate driver, which i'll magnanimously chalk off as being inconsequential to my general welfare.

    So for today I give the local estate traffic my five star seal of approval.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  3. Instography
    Member

    Tootled in this morning through the estate and had three cheery waves from estate vehicles and contractors as I pulled over to the side to let them pass me as I slogged up the hill.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  4. Kenny
    Member

    Can anyone explain what the detour for this path closure is? I ask because I was about to send the wife, child and mother-in-law on a walking route as they prepare for the Moonwalk, and the route was going to take them along the A90 path, until about 10 minutes before they left and then I remembered this thread, so changed their route entirely, as I was not sure how much of a detour it is. Is there a map somewhere showing what you now have to do to get from Barnton to the FRB?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  5. chdot
    Admin

  6. Dalmeny01
    Member

    I was directed to this thread by a friend and felt that I ought to reply to give a voice to the folk that live and work on the estate.

    It's nice to see that most people are understanding that the incident that started this thread is an isolated one. I actually don't know who it would have been who would have acted in that way as I'm not familiar with the vehicle. However, the nice lady cited in the 'aged' (that tickled her!) Freelander is my wife.

    I think the difficulty is a combination of a few factors.

    Firstly, cycle traffic with the diversion has increased hugely. We are talking about at least 10 times as many bikes. Secondly, it is a working estate with a great deal of work activity occurring on a daily basis (I undertake forestry contracting on Dalmeny). Thirdly, the nature of the roads on the Burnshot Drive (the drive with the affectionately named Widowmaker. The name of the hill is Nursery Brae btw) means that there are blind summits and corners, which are quite stressful for people driving.

    Anyway, I agree that there might be the odd bad apple motorist using the estate roads (there are hundreds of authorised vehicles here each day), but my primary gripe is the lack of a simple acknowledgement or thank you from cyclists when I pull out of the way. This evening I counted 7 out of 8 cyclists blank me as I pulled well over to allow them to pass. Just one said thankyou.

    Now as someone who used to do an extensive amount of road cycling as a teenager (10-15 years ago, 10 mile TTs mainly, once nationally. 100-150 miles a week for about 4 years), I always always did everything I could to foster a better relationship with motorists. Saying thank you even when it wasn't strictly necessary etc. I would implore cyclists using the estate to do the same thing. It doesn't cost anything, and it's the single best thing you can do. The overwhelming feeling amongst residents is that they don't have an issue with the cyclists in principle, only that they are awfully rude, not acknowledging when someone has pulled over to allow you to pass.

    Anyway, I hope that this has shed a little light on the situation and wish everyone cycling through the estate much enjoyment!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

    @Dalmeny01

    Welcome and thank you very much for posting that.

    As you will be aware there are several people on here with recent experience of that route - and some differing opinions...

    I have not been in the Estate since the diversion so have no view on what is happening or whether route/signage/actions are a big or small problem - now that people have got used to the 'new reality'.

    I'm a bit disappointed if people are not acknowledging 'kindness/good practice'.

    Maybe your post will improve things!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  8. Cyclingmollie
    Member

    chdot: "I'm a bit disappointed if people are not acknowledging 'kindness/good practice'."

    That'll be members of Team FLASA.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  9. minus six
    Member

    my primary gripe is the lack of a simple acknowledgement or thank you from cyclists when I pull out of the way

    Possibly these are primarily urban riders unaware of general countryside code protocol.

    As a fast commuter rather than a leisure rider I'm avoiding the estate diversion, but I'll be through next sunday carting a trailer load of carpets.

    You can certainly expect a hearty wave from me in the event that our paths cross on a single track road !

    Posted 10 years ago #
  10. Blueth
    Member

    "Possibly these are primarily urban riders unaware of general countryside code protocol."

    I would say that acknowledging a courtesy is as much an urban thing as a rural one so no excuse on that basis (see my recent post on certain motorists not acknowledging in similar circumstances).

    Posted 10 years ago #
  11. minus six
    Member

    acknowledging a courtesy is as much an urban thing as a rural one

    Should be so, i agree.. but we live in a vulgar era, unfortunately.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  12. Two Tired
    Member

    @Dalmeny01

    Your choice if wording is interesting:

    I agree that there MIGHT be the odd bad apple motorist

    But when it comes to the cyclists:

    only that they ARE awfully rude

    Whilst not defending the cyclists who don't acknowledge the courtesy of other road users (which yes is rude) there can be other factors involved. Are residents stopping to let the cyclists pass or just pulling over a bit so there is 'space'? I don't acknowledge in those situations, in fact I generally stop till the vehicle is past and get a little frustrated at the whole thing in the process. Though in general on single track roads i always seem to stop first, probably as I will seize any excuse for a break! We are sharing the road after all so passing each other has to be par for the coarse.

    Alternatively if I'm slogging up a hill and meet a vehicle coming down then depending on my exertion level my smile and nod of acknowledgment might disappear somewhat into the sweaty, beetroot tinged grimace that is my face! Sometimes those in vehicles seem to forget that we are travelling under our own steam.

    If SOME cyclists are not acknowledging when a vehicle has obviously pulled over and stopped to allow passing then I agree they are being rude and i despair of them as much as you do. It saddens me that they are the ones who are remembered and trotted out as a reminder of the rudeness of ALL cyclists. There is plenty of evidence from this forum alone that not all cyclists going through the estate are like this though just as not all motorists are "bad apples".

    Posted 10 years ago #
  13. SRD
    Moderator

    thread drift alert!

    What really annoys me is when pedestrians strolling across a zebra crossing or junction, when I have stopped for them, conspicuously thank the car driver for stopping and ignore me. I mean, we don't need thanks, but if you're going to thank someone, surely you should acknowledge both? or even rate the cyclist (esp if going uphill) who has suspended their velocity more?

    but no, they thank the car driver. every time.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  14. zesty
    Member

    Have been riding through the estate for the last couple of weeks and have had no problem with the few drivers I've come across.

    I acknowledge them all as I usually meet them when I'm blowing oot me erse going up the hill so usually all over the road!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  15. DaveC
    Member

    Hi Mr Green 'Aged' Freelander driver's husband. ;o)

    Thankyou for taking the time to register and respond. I also admit to not being overly grateful when climbing the Burnshot drive hill on my way into Edinburgh, where the first incident occured, which caused me to complain and write the original thread. I do think/hope I thank most drivers who show me courtecy, but if I have offended I appologise! Sorry. :o(

    I am very greatful that we are allowed to travel through the estate as its a breath of fresh air compared to some routes through Edinburgh we have to pass through. I tend to travel through along the diversion on my way in but then hug the coast along the N76 on my way home.

    From my own perspective, whilst riding on UK's roads, I have been shouted at, run into, run off the road, beeped at from behind with no warning, left hooked forcing me to take a left turn off the road I was traveling on, to avoid being run over and finally left hooked by a lorry who ran over my bike and squashed it, and but for me spotting this happening and jumping off, I'd have been squashed too! I hope you accept that I'm slightly apprehensive when I see 1.5 - 2 tonnes of steel barreling down on me and usually just want to get out of the way, as some drivers are not actively looking for cyclists! And I hope you'll appreciate if I were to run into your vehicle, I'll perhaps dent/scratch your wing/bodywork. If you run into me I'll come off a lot worse! This is not an excuse for rude or ignorant behavour, which I do not condone. Its an attempt to explain what some cyclists go through and why the first reaction to approaching a large vehicle is not to smile and wave.

    I'll continue to acknowledge courtesous drivers where I can (like when we smiled and waved thanks to your wife who very kindly mounted the grass verge to give us room), but if I'm struggling up some hill I hope you'll forgive me. I'm just trying to get home to see my young children, and this is what it just boils down to, we're all brothers, fathers, hubands, etc.. just trying to get to and from work in the most safest and convenient way.

    Dave Crampton

    Posted 10 years ago #
  16. stiltskin
    Member

    I'd only like to add that I think going through the estate is great & I've never had any problems. I would say that if the road is narrow & both of us are moving it can be tricky to wave an acknowledgement at the same time as making sure you safely negotiate the narrow gap you have to aim for. However, I'm always grateful when people make space for me.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  17. panyagua
    Member

    @stiltskin +1

    The narrow roadway, blind bends and hills often do make it necessary to keep both hands on the bars in order to remain fully in control. On such occasions I try to nod an acknowledgement but it's possible that may be missed by drivers more accustomed to a wave of the hand.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  18. fimm
    Member

    You would have thought that Dalmeny01, with his cycling experience, would know about the problems of waving thank you when your hands are full of bicycle?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  19. Dalmeny01
    Member

    Lots to respond to!

    @Two tired - I realise that perhaps my choice of words is delving into semantics, but I would defend that choice on the basis of statistics. Thus far, only a small proportion of drivers are creating issues for cyclists whereas most cyclists aren't acknowledging motorist's efforts to provide the aforementioned cyclists space. I must admit that the proportion of cyclists smiling/hand gesturing today was a little better!

    @ Zesty and Dave C - of course I wouldn't expect a hand wave when climbing a hill! I suppose eye contact with a smile would suffice, but it's just nice to be acknowledged. For the record, this is standard protocol for almost all the vehicles using the estate. It's like being way up north - everyone just waves, regardless of whether you know them or not!
    Dave C - I do remember the hazards of UK riding. Grew up near Derby and then moved to Manchester later on (only rode for commuting by that point). All the abusive behaviour you've experienced I've had, and I've been knocked off twice by cars, once by a pedestrian who jumped out in front of me. No fun! However, I always went with the policy that if I was as polite as possible, it would at least do something to improve motorist/cyclist relations, and anything that could be done was worth doing.

    @ Fimm - true enough, but referring back to earlier in this post, eye contact would be enough.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  20. Two Tired
    Member

    @Dalmeny0

    Please don't mention statistics here...or jump on over to the spokes/helmet topic and have a read :-D And as for defending the use of 'might' well, where is the statistics in that? A bad experience was reported here, that is fact not conjecture.

    I think your experiencing 7/8 cyclists not giving you the courtesy of acknowledgement is pretty poor. I am just asking you not to tar all cyclists with the same brush.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  21. Dalmeny01
    Member

    Fair enough. I'm not one to tar any group with one brush, only voicing the issues some of the residents have as well as reporting on my own experience. It's great to see so many people cycling these days (no where near as popular 15 years ago - I remember that I was the only kid in a year of 200 who road cycled) but I feel that with this influx of newer cyclists, some of the etiquette has perhaps been lost. I might be wrong, but it's just the impression I get.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  22. minus six
    Member

    It's like being way up north - everyone just waves, regardless of whether you know them or not!

    these days i find its more of a single digit finger being grudgingly raised wearily from the steering wheel.

    but perhaps there's an influx of newer motorists up north?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  23. Dave
    Member

    I don't find driving up north to be that friendly at all, and we're up there a lot (used to be every weekend like clockwork). Perhaps it just falls short of high expectations. Try riding a bike up there and you'll have plenty of issues with idiots on roads with passing places.

    Personally, I find the expectation of acknowledgement unrealistic although that's not to say either that I don't acknowledge people or that I think others shouldn't.

    Imagine if you were walking along a single track road without pavements - you'd rightly expect not to be run down, and think it a bit of cheek if drivers complained that they weren't getting a wave when they didn't run people over. (Again, not to say that pedestrians /shouldn't/ wave).

    It's a constructed etiquette. Even cyclists seem to think that cyclists should be all about acknowledgement, but I guess it's inevitable that anything which expands beyond a hardcore niche, eventually loses conventions which existed for their own sake?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  24. Instography
    Member

    We used to have one of the three silver Vauxhall Zafiras in the village and people were always waving at me. I had no idea who they were and then it dawned on me - they weren't waving because they knew me, they were waving in case they knew me. Much better to wave to a stranger than to feel you'd blanked a friend.

    I quite like pointless and artificial conviviality. Imagine the alternative.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  25. Charterhall
    Member

    So let me get this right Dalmeny01. You are occupying substantially more road space than a cyclist and almost the entire width of the road, you are emitting toxic and global warming pollution, you are creating noise pollution, you are creating massively more wear and tear of the road surface than any cyclist, and you are consuming a non renewable fuel source. And yet you expect cyclists to doff their cap to you when you meet ?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  26. Instography
    Member

    Cap doffing? Who said anything about cap doffing? It sounds more like greasing the chain of life. Low level civility. A momentary, casual gesture of mutual recognition as we each deviate from our path to pass in the road and continue on our way. Cap doffing? That's right up there with kneepads today.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  27. stiltskin
    Member

    Errr... We are talking about vehicles on a working estate. What are expecting him to be using on estate roads. Shire horses?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  28. DaveC
    Member

    Steady on Charterhall, at least Dalmeny01 has come on here to answer some of our concerns and air their side of things. Insto, have you got any good suggestions for kneepads?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  29. Instography
    Member

    Kneepads? I can tell you where to put them and it's not on your knees.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  30. DaveC
    Member

    :D Get you Missus!!!

    Posted 10 years ago #

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