TBH. When I've ridden past the estate there seem to be an awful lot of people going down there. I was thinking about it, but stayed on the roads becausse it was going to be impossible to maintain 2m. It's one of these cases where every man & his dog decides to exercise in the same place & it is difficult to maintain social distance in those circumstances. It's a honeypot. If I was in their position I wouldn't be too impressed with crowds going onto my land.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Cycling News
Riding through the Dalmeny Estate because of closure of the A90 path
(119 posts)-
Posted 4 years ago #
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@stiltskin
For the full historical context this book is enlightening.
Notions such as 'my land' are quite novel in Scotland. It has always been 'our land' with some bits more clearly assigned to a steward than others. The Land Reform Act of 2003 made clear that ownership of open land is not total. We all retain rights over it. It is not entirely private.
Various dukes, barons, earls and thieves have been trying to privatise the land since the 1500s. They have been resisted with some success and that resistance is ongoing. This is just another skirmish in that Five Hundred Years War.
It might be instructive to find out how the current occupants came to 'own' the Dalmeny estate. My guess is they didn't clear and plough it by the sweat of their brows.
Posted 4 years ago # -
That may well be historically correct. But factually it is their land. But that is kinda beside the point. One of the problems the nation is struggling with is that people are taking the 'take exercise bit' to mean lets take the car & go for a walk somewhere nice. Unfortunately everyone else has the same idea and bingo there goes your social distancing and up go the infections. It can't be good that the Cramond Brig car park is rammed, and setting aside egalitarian politics for the moment, I think you do need to restrict access to popular outdoor sites.
Posted 4 years ago # -
factually it is their land
I think it's important to challenge that proposition. The earl / baron / thief in question will be using this opportunity to attempt to assert it, we should resist.
Posted 4 years ago # -
[+] Embed the video | Video Download Get the Flash Video The assumption that the rich wish to be adopted seems to be along the lines of "I've built more gatehouses and horse statues on it than you, so it must be mine now."
Posted 4 years ago # -
There is a pandemic running through our country that will likely kill thousands of people.
It is monumentally selfish to ignore advice to stay at home and instead drive off some where nice for a walk or cycle.
Posted 4 years ago # -
It is monumentally selfish to ignore advice to stay at home and instead drive off some where nice for a walk or cycle.
Is it any worse than going to the supermarket or just going for a walk in a densely populated area?
Posted 4 years ago # -
Half of Scotland is registered as 'belonging' to just 500 legal entities. So we already have a monument to selfishness and that's it right there.
I'm not arguing that anyone should go to Dalmeny, just that Dalmeny should be as open as my local green space which was left to CEC in the previous owner's will on the condition that it remain open to all.
Plutocrats are just waiting to take advantage of this horror. Mr Primrose may well be among their number.
Posted 4 years ago # -
There are two completely different and separate issues here.
One is the right of someone to say "this is my land, keep off". That is what IWRATS is taking about.
The other is behaviour during the circumstances we have now, where we need to keep away from other people. Suppose you have a dog. It needs to be walked. Is it better to take it to the local park where there are lots of other people walking their dogs/playing with their children/going for a walk, or to drive 10 minutes to where there's a spot that not many people go to where you can be away from others?
Suppose you get to your quiet spot and find it isn't as unknown to others as you thought? What do you do now?
At first glance our current situation feels black and white. But I think there are a few grey areas where space from others wins over staying as close to home as possible. Others may disagree with me.
Posted 4 years ago # -
“Is it any worse than going to the supermarket or just going for a walk in a densely populated area?”
After this is all(?) over will there be a ‘plan for next time’?
Will it involve instant shutting of supermarkets and a well organised home distribution system?
Posted 4 years ago # -
@fimm. This is the situation I find myself in. Usually walk dogs on Costorphine Hill, now rammed with people, half of whom show no signs of understanding about distancing. Do I now drive somewhere else to walk them? But that is different to selecting somewhere to go because it normally qualifies as a nice walk... because that is what everyone else is doing.
Suppose you get to your quiet spot and find it isn't as unknown to others as you thought? What do you do now?
But this is the problem about people understanding the need for compliance. The correct answer is you go elsewhere. Put it this way. If you went shopping and then found there was a maniac wielding a machete in the bread aisle, would you say. Well, I've come all this way to buy some crumpets, I'm not going home without them?Posted 4 years ago # -
My in-laws, who were previously hard to convince of the merits of staying in, announced "we drove to Dunure yesterday, but it was heaving, so we stayed in the car and came home."
There are fewer cars parked beside Leith Links despite it being quite busy, as more people seem to be walking to it to empty their dogs rather than driving. Perhaps they have more time.
Posted 4 years ago # -
At first I was horrified by the reaction of Derbyshire Police (shaming drivers driving to the Peak District for walks).
However, the issue with people driving is that it increases the risk of crashes and hence burden on the NHS. On top of that, the need to fill up with petrol (handling pumps touched by 1000s) and wear and tear on the car itself (added up over a population, this will mean increased demand for maintenance/garages, spare parts, tyres, etc.)
People should not be driving for non-essential trips. Plain and simple. Do your exercise near your home. There are plenty of quiet residential streets to do this in.
Posted 4 years ago # -
People should not be driving for non-essential trips. Plain and simple. Do your exercise near your home. There are plenty of quiet residential streets to do this in.
Thats all well and good here but there are plenty of places in the country which have been so influenced by car culture that its near impossible to get far from your front door with out taking the car.
It also ignores some potential mental health issues which can be relieved by just not being in the city for a while. Its not nearly as black as white as the govt would like it to be.
Posted 4 years ago # -
That said about the crashes, there are currently some complete nutters driving about on the empty roads.
One person caught doing 134mph in a 40 on the A12. (I hope that's jail time for them)
The law of unintended consequences and all that
Posted 4 years ago # -
Well they don't need to worry about me handcycling through the estate, NCN 76 still has the (probably illegal) barriers at each end and I haven't been able to use the road through since they installed the gates last year ):
It is quite difficult to remain 2m away when passing an oncoming cyclist on the A90 cyclepath...Posted 4 years ago # -
I am with neddie that you should exercise within walking/cycling distance of your home. Also cycle on suburban streets - they are very quiet my way. Though I do acknowledge that I live close to the Murrayfield Mountains, which are handsome, leafy and gardened, with wide pavements. It may be more difficult for (a) people in Westerhailes and similar areas; (b) people in suburban car wastelands like The Murrays.
Roseburn Terrace is looking like Pete Gregson's post-apocalyptic artist's impression after the cycle lane has killed it off.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Roseburn Terrace is looking like Pete Gregson's post-apocalyptic artist's impression after the cycle lane has killed it off.
What do want to bet he's out counting cyclists.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Speaking as someone who lives and works on Dalmeny Estate, I hope that people will not get the wrong end of the stick about our emergency closure request. This isn’t a political issue of access rights, but a matter of voluntarily balancing potentially conflicting needs during a medical crisis.
Dalmeny Estate has welcomed the public to its Shore Walk for at least two hundred years, long before the right of responsible access was granted in law. Local people have walked and cycled on the estate for years, enjoying its beautiful natural environment. Most have also followed the common-sense practices that help the place stay beautiful and productive as a farm: staying on the roads, keeping dogs on leads, not dropping rubbish. Given we are so close to the city and are now almost completely surrounded by housing, the cooperation between the estate and its visitors has been, on balance, remarkably successful and trouble-free.
The COVID-19 crisis, though, brings new challenges, as we saw last Sunday when several thousands of people were on the estate. The current lockdown period overlaps with lambing time: 1,200 ewes here are due to give birth in the next few days, most of them bearing twins. It’s like a giant outdoor maternity ward, through which the roads normally used by the public pass. Ewes and lambs have to be moved from place to place, especially if the cold weather persists. There are only two shepherds, who will be spending almost the whole day on their quad-bikes, hurrying to where they are needed. If either one of them came down with the virus, it would be disastrous. At the same time, spring planting is going on, with large farm machinery crossing the estate to get the seed in the fields as soon as possible. In this, too, the farm cannot spare a single person, or the grain crop – next year’s bread and beer – will suffer.
We therefore request, not order, that the public avoid the areas of the estate where this essential work is going on. Although many public authorities have gone so far as to close their land completely, we have kept open, at the east and west ends of the estate, access to tracks and beaches convenient to local people. Again, this is not political: we are not invoking laws and regulations, but appealing to common sense and consideration – qualities that cyclists should have in plenty.
Posted 4 years ago # -
“We therefore request, not order, that the public avoid the areas of the estate where this essential work is going on.“
Seems reasonable.
ESPECIALLY when
“The COVID-19 crisis, though, brings new challenges, as we saw last Sunday when several thousands of people were on the estate. The current lockdown period overlaps with lambing time”
Posted 4 years ago # -
By email -
“
Dear Walkers & off road cyclists,
Paths including Core Paths and Rights of Way which pass through working areas of farms may be closed to allow farm workers to self isolate during this Covid-19 crisis.
The Fife Council Access Officer is liaising with the National Farmers’ Union (NFU) for guidance.“
Posted 4 years ago # -
@Dalmeny, thanks for taking the time to post here.
Do you have any comment on the new gates and the inability of disabled cyclists to now enjoy Dalmeny in better times?
Posted 4 years ago # -
From the map you can also walk three sides of the estate, tho not the fourth section that crosses the estate.
I don’t think this is unreasonable.
So hopefully when the world is reset we can all get along famously
Posted 4 years ago # -
Dear @acsimpson (and other readers),
The difficulty for those on recumbent hand-bicycles getting through Dalmeny Estate is indeed a problem, and if, after reading this post, anyone has a constructive solution, I’d be delighted to hear about it.
We reluctantly put in electric gates on the main drives because we were having increasing problems with cars speeding through the estate on commuter rat-runs, along with car-and-motorcycle-supported bad behaviour of various kinds: break-ins at estate properties, chasing livestock, fires in the woods, broken glass on the beaches, and so on.
Every gate that leads into a area with sheep needs to have a pedestrian/cyclist entrance that a sheep can’t get through; a self-closing “kissing gate” design is required, or we’d have livestock straying onto the public road.
We consulted and worked with Edinburgh Council access officers on the design (based on SNH blueprints), which is the biggest possible, allowing mobility scooters and standard bicycles to pass through, but not motorcycles.
At either end of the John Muir way (at Cramond Brig and at Longcraig Pier in Queensferry) there there are no livestock, so we have an open chicane entrance, again because of problems with motorcycles.
So there’s the problem; we can’t spend hours of our working time catching youths whose idea of a good time is chasing pregnant ewes on a scrambler bike – but keeping them out also restricts access for recumbent hand-bicycles. It’s fine to talk about matters of principle, but that’s not going to solve the problem. Forum members are practical people; it would be good to hear a practical proposal.
Posted 4 years ago # -
“Forum members are practical people; it would be good to hear a practical proposal.”
Posted 4 years ago # -
Farm closure elsewhere
Posted 4 years ago # -
Is there some way hand cyclists could individually be given access through the electric gates? A couple of suggestions:
1. A video/intercom allowing hand cyclists to ask the estate office to open the gate remotely (assuming this is possible). Obviously only works while the office is staffed - although there are mobile apps that could allow this to be done by staff working elsewhere.
2. Key code pad/electronic key to allow the gate to be opened by individual hand cyclists without the need for action by estate staff - although this would require hand cyclists to be given the code or a key by the estate beforehand.
Without knowing the exact set-up it is difficult to make concrete suggestions. Interested to hear whether this sort of thing might be viable from both the estate and hand cyclists.
Posted 4 years ago # -
I can't imagine any purely mechanical arrangement that excludes all motor vehicles but allows any carriage to pass.
I guess the 2003 Act presupposes a state able and willing to tackle anti-social behaviour, which seems a necessary corollary to a requirement to open access. The reductions in rights under the 2003 Act in the Trossachs park came about for exactly this reason - existing ranger and police resources were insufficient to deal with the numbers of idiots.
Posted 4 years ago # -
IWRATS - yeah. Probably wasn't clear - I was suggesting that hand cyclists be given access through the electric gates currently used to allow access for estate vehicles. No need to change the cycle entrances at all.
Posted 4 years ago # -
@Morningsider
It is a poser. Possibly quite demeaning to have to request access that others have by right?
Posted 4 years ago #
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