CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".
IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 16years old!
Well done to ALL posters
It soon became useful and entertaining. There are regular posters, people who add useful info occasionally and plenty more who drop by to watch. That's fine. If you want to add news/comments it's easy to register and become a member.
RULES No personal insults. No swearing.
Blog post from Jim Orr: http://www.theedinburghreporter.co.uk/2013/06/councillor-jim-orr-blogs-on-his-dutch-cycling-trip/
Nice that they've gone to visit, but that "shared vision" language pops up again, the roundabouts are dismissed as too expensive, cycle tracks are not once mentioned, and on the whole there is a certain degree of confused thinking evident.
I sensed a fair amount of 'best not sound too enthusiastic' about it, especially the bit about the difficulties of being a pedestrian, which sounded like he thought it had maybe all gone a bit overboard with the cycling.
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Car drivers in Amsterdam know they have to give way to cyclists and pedestrians in most situations, and this is accepted.
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What was Mr. Brown saying about strict liability?
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They’ve also adapted to significant restrictions in residential parking.
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Well yes, so Mr. Orr/Ms. Hinds...
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All in all, a very interesting introduction to cycling policy in the Netherlands. Safe, quiet streets with thriving retail economies, and the famous Dutch tolerance always being extended to other species in their ever-evolving transport eco-system
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Like Leith Walk?
Same tolerance in UK/Scotland/Edinburgh?
Let's give it time. He hasn't got to the other Dutch cities yet.
Anyone else found walking in Amsterdam problematic? I've never had an issue when visiting. Never cycled there, but will in due course...
From twitter it looks like Kaya Burgess from the Times is there too, also David Miller from BBC Scotland.
Are they all on the same gig?
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Kaya Burgess (Times) (@kayaburgess)
10/06/2013 06:45
Waking up in Amsterdam today for three-day visit to learn about cycling policy from the Dutch masters. We're about 40 years behind in the UK
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Jim Orr is treading a fine line. I think he wants to play the 'wow!' card, but politically he has to identify Edinburgh as being closer to Amsterdam than it really is, by cherry picking CEC policies that aren't matched by national idealism.
Did you ever get the feeling
that the truth is less revealing
than a downright lie?
And did you think your head was hip
to certain things it's not equipped
to qualify?
All together now,
1..2..3..
Even if Cllr Orr were to undergo some Damacene conversion and suddenly start shouting about Dutch roundabouts and segregated lanes everywhere in Edinburgh, he does not have the power to do much about it. He's not Mayor of London; he's not the Council Leader; he's not even Transport Committee Convener. Yes, he's responsible for cycling in Edinburgh for the next few years, but what resources does he have at his disposal?
Cabinet Secretary Brown, on the other hand, has a great deal of power and substantial budgets under his control: right across Scotland he could change things. I wonder how his trip is going?
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the Netherlands didn’t get them overnight – they took generations of investment.
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'Spose it depends how you define generation.
Perhaps more relevant is to look at 'why the change' and to what extent it was 'incremental'.
According to this well known video -
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It was a mixture of the 1973 'oil crisis' and mass public protests about road deaths.
Unfortunately the Scottish Government is quite keen on the beneficial nature of North Sea Oil in perpetuating the current forms of transport/economy.
More fortunately (but not in this context) road deaths are not so dramatic - or likely to fall so markedly if Dutch style pro-cycle infrastructure were to be widely adopted.
Why is he there then?
David Miller may or may not be there (had heard he was planning to go), But Kaya Burgess and Andrew Gilligan definitely are.
Would love to hear the conversations over breakfast...
Unfortunately the Scottish Government is quite keen on the beneficial nature of North Sea Oil in perpetuating the current forms of transport/economy.
Hardly surprising given the SNP's campaign slogan in the 1970s: "It's Scotland's Oil".
Alex Salmond was an oil economist for RBS before becoming an MP.
As for Keith Brown, what transport expertise did he bring to his brief? Apart from driving a car, that is.
A little bit from Keith:
Fingers crossed...
"Fingers crossed..."
Call me a cynic but that's probably wiser than holding your breath.
Ha! Quite.
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Edinburgh Reporter (@EdinReporter)
11/06/2013 05:59
Councillor Jim Orr reports from Amsterdam Day 2
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The Dutch planned to expand road networks through large towns (like the UK did) but turned their back on this policy in the 1960s in favour of more sustainable transport policies. “Make cycling safe for all and easy and fast” was, and remains, an important policy objective as de Lange simply considered cycling as the best way to move masses of people around urban areas. She commented that whenever a by-pass or ring road is built in the Netherlands, that equivalent restrictions are put in place through the town in question, in order to maximise the benefits. All very interesting.
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Hope his mate Keith was listening.
part II http://www.theedinburghreporter.co.uk/2013/06/councillor-jim-orr-reports-from-amsterdam-day-2/
Interesting seeing Cllr Orr pedal along the cycle path to Damascus (or was it Utrecht?): I do wonder though what Cllr MacAveety (Glasgow) and Cabinet Secretary Brown are thinking...
I note they had a shot on electric bikes - the big growth area in NL.
Good to read blog though...
Interesting how we have congestion charging on railways here to deter too much use. In NL parking charges are higher instead, with integrated ticketing on public transport with no peak fares as far as I know.
You can ask Mr Brown himself tomorrow if you like - use the hashtag #askkbrown for a live Q&A chat on twitter tomorrow at 4pm
(Apologies to the non twitter people for whom the preceding sentence was probably gibberish)
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WWF Scotland (@WWFScotland)
13/06/2013 07:30
4pm TODAY, Transport Minister Keith Brown will be answering YOUR questions about transport & climate change. Submit your Q using #AskKBrown
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As I don't use (and don't intend to use) Twitter, and I won't be on the internet at 4pm today, I offer up possible questions for someone to ask:
"What have you learned from your trip to the Netherlands?"
Also:
"Why are you opposed to strict liability legislation for road collisions?"
Done 1)
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Cycling Edinburgh (@CyclingEdin)
13/06/2013 09:27
@WWFScotland #AskKBrown obvious first question - What have you learned from your trip and what policy changes will @scotgov make?
#cycling
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Someone else can do other...
Crowriver - I can tell you KB's answer re Strict Liability:
"Ministers do not agree with the cyclists’ position on criminal liability or civil liability for road accidents, so we do not intend to take the matter forward. As was required under the previous CAPS, we investigated the situation in other countries, and we are not able to make a correlation between liability and improved safety. That was a point of difference between us."
See Column 1784 of the attached:
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybusiness/28862.aspx?r=8203&mode=pdf
The legal experts at Cycle Law Scotland disagree with the Minister on this one and, having read some of their briefing on this, I would tend to agree with them and not the Minister.
Depressing but predictable.
He thinks it's not kosher.
Fundamentally he can't take it.
You know he really hates it.
"…we investigated the situation in other countries, and we are not able to make a correlation between liability and improved safety."
The report of that investigation might be worth obtaining. I find KB's response to be completely barking.
"We are also talking to people in Denmark and Spain and are trying to learn the lessons of what they have done there. Of course, it is true to say that not every lesson will be transferable. We have a different climate and a different topography from those places, but we want to learn lessons from their experience."
This kind of sums it up. Scotland has hills and a motoring culture that is encouraged by Government, so we can't really follow the lead of the Dutch or the Danish. Perhaps the real lesson to be learned, the question to be asked, is actually "How do the popular European authorities deal with hills when planning cycle infrastructure?"
That would be a good question, actually... "In what way is the climate in Copenhagen different from that in Scotland, which means that lessons can't be learned from their policies on cycling?"
There seems no prospect of mass cycling in Scotland under the SNP.
@Morningsider, yeah I saw something about that. I still think he hasn't said why though. "we are not able to make a correlation between liability and improved safety" is not an explanation, it's an obfuscation.
Perhaps the question ought to be:
"Why do you think strict liability legislation governing road collisions will not improve road safety?"
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