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Jim and Keith in Shangri-La

(55 posts)
  • Started 12 years ago by Calum
  • Latest reply from Morningsider

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    One problem is that SG 'relies' on the fact it's 'up to local authorities'.

    In Copenhagen I think officials tried a few things, then got a degree of cautious political support, then discovered that the public wanted more!!

    There is a UK/Scottish/Edinburgh assumption that those who don't want it (the alleged silent majority motorists/voters) will shout loudest.

    We have politicians (this is not particularly directed at the SNP - they just happen to be in power) who believe that toll-free new bridges, bypasses etc. = popular = votes.

    At 'best' this is short-sighted and may well be wrong and (perhaps) contributing to 'voter apathy'.

    Need more officials/politicians willing to argue that 'active travel' is good - requires investment, but will save money (after most politicians are unelected/retired).

    Just have to hope there isn't a conversation along the lines of

    'Well Jim, we've had a great time and learned a lot and could do a lot of it at home. But we are not going to, so don't promise anything'.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  2. fimm
    Member

    Tweeted the strict liability question - on my phone so not going to copy it here.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  3. Roibeard
    Member

    From Jim Orr's latest blog "It was great that [Keith Brown] took the time to join us for most of the day and all the Dutch were very impressed by this."

    Oops - very clear suggestion that Jim isn't actually on the same visit as Keith. Which begs the question, what's Keith doing/seeing?

    Robert

    Posted 12 years ago #

  4. crowriver
    Member

    Which begs the question, what's Keith doing/seeing?

    Tour of the 'coffee shops'/red light districts?
    Meeting with Dutch motorsport enthusiasts?
    Soliciting bidders for the Scotrail franchise?
    Meeting with war veterans' representatives?

    Posted 12 years ago #

  5. minus six
    Member

    Tweet:

    Why do you think strict liability legislation governing road collisions will not improve road safety?

    Shareef:

    I'm glad you've asked that. Erm... because we've got hills?

    Posted 12 years ago #

  6. crowriver
    Member

    Oh aye, and it rains here. I understand the weather is always really fantastic in the Netherlands, Denmark, Germany an' a' that.

    I mean, come on, it's Scotland! Anyone who disnae drive is a daftie!

    Posted 12 years ago #

  7. cc
    Member

    Anyone who disnae drive is a daftie!

    That certainly seems to be the SNP view. So destructive and stupid.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  8. crowriver
    Member

    Councillor Jim Orr – Last day in Amsterdam

    http://www.theedinburghreporter.co.uk/2013/06/councillor-jim-orr-last-day-in-amsterdam/

    I detect a somewhat wistful tone towards the end there. Maybe something along the lines of "This is amazing, it's like a dream! Alas, I'm from Edinburgh, and we'll never get away with anything like it..."

    Posted 12 years ago #

  9. crowriver
    Member

    That certainly seems to be the SNP view. So destructive and stupid.

    On anecdotal evidence, it's a very widely held view in society as a whole. SNP never afraid to play the populist card.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  10. Morningsider
    Member

    "I am hoping to bring back many of the lessons learned from this visit and discuss these further with the cycling community and local authorities back home in order to improve and promote bike use across Scotland." - KB.

    There you have it, the only commitment is to have a discussion. Also, it is the same visit as Jim Orr etc. is on, just the Minister was only there for the Tuesday.

    I'm not aware of the SG report on strict liability ever being published - I certainly can't seem to find it.

    Details: http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/news/Minister-heads-to-the-Netherlands-to-explore-cycling-opportunities-for-Scotland

    Posted 12 years ago #

  11. minus six
    Member

    its jist... its jist different cultures eh, ye ken?

    aw that waccy baccy... its gone to their heids.

    thiv gone pure bike crazy !

    cannae wait tae get hame.

    wir duallin' the north !!

    Posted 12 years ago #

  12. crowriver
    Member

    From Cllr Orr's blog:

    'He said that a car is “always the first choice for the public” but that the city is “full up.” Wiebes also commented that there is an “endless struggle of parking spaces versus cycle lanes” in Amsterdam, a situation which for once felt familiar to the UK delegates.'

    I find that very telling. It's basically the only situation he identifies with! The rest is all 'interesting' but presumably also so different from day to day Edinburgh that it's completely alien...

    What of substance will come from this study trip, I wonder?

    Posted 12 years ago #

  13. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Tweet: Why do you think strict liability legislation governing road collisions will not improve road safety?

    But doesn't the UK already operate forms of strict liability? Why is its application to cycling somehow impossible?

    One reason I've been told by an anti-liability person is that it would be 'unfair' to the motorist because of all these idiot people who ride with dark clothing and without lights at night, and thereby are asking to be hit, and there would 'surely' be evidence in favour of the motorist. It has also been eloquently suggested to me that it wouldn't matter, because it was the motorist's decision to be driving at all at that time.

    If I go the Meadows to walk my dog*, and my dog bites someone while off the leash, and that someone is injured as a result, does liability come into play there? It would have been my choice to be in a populated place with a (potentially) dangerous animal and also without adequate controls.

    * I don't in fact own a dog.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  14. steveo
    Member

    Dogs are an extension of your property so I doubt liability would be an issue, you'd be facing criminal charges and potentially jail time. Cars of course have a will of their own so they can be held to account whilst the drivers is basically blameless in an incident usually just a fine and off you go.

    You know some days I think the law has things backwards...

    Posted 12 years ago #

  15. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Keith Brown MSP (@KeithBrownMSP)
    13/06/2013 16:00
    @CyclingEdin @WWFScotland V.pleased to see 1st hand a range of measures & will consider how these measures could be applied in Scotland...

    "

    Posted 12 years ago #

  16. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Keith Brown MSP (@KeithBrownMSP)
    13/06/2013 16:01
    @CyclingEdin @WWFScotland ... the need for provision for cycle parking to enable integration with train and other modes.

    "

    That's almost like a commitment!

    Posted 12 years ago #

  17. chdot
    Admin

    Didn't answer questions about paying trainers to deliver Bikeability.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  18. Morningsider
    Member

    Cycle parking at railway stations. Do you think that will be the type of cycle parking you seen in The Netherlands, or more of the random Sheffield racks which stand forlorn in the corners of most Scottish railway stations, open to the elements and passing neds...

    Posted 12 years ago #

  19. chdot
    Admin

    Perhaps it's a shame they went in summer -

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Player

    Note the car caution - no doubt something to do with strict liability...

    Posted 12 years ago #

  20. fimm
    Member

    That twitter thing was a bit pish - it looked like he only answered about 3 questions...

    Posted 12 years ago #

  21. shuggiet
    Member

    Yes it was... And the expected bland non-committal answer to the PoP question duly appeared...I was vaguely hoping to see some signs in his answers (to any of the questions), that he was newly energized and inspired from his visit. But no...

    Posted 12 years ago #

  22. crowriver
    Member

    I have this feeling that Cabinet Secretary Brown is not someone given to sudden bursts of insight or inspiration. He's much more of a battler, fighting his corner against all comers, doggedly holding his position in the teeth of wave after wave of enemy onslaught...

    You get the idea.

    It's also abundantly clear which side he is fighting for.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  23. Arellcat
    Moderator

    David Hembrow, who seems to have an uncanny knack of always being right, recently wrote this article:

    http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2012/01/campaign-for-sustainable-safety-not.html

    about why "strict liability" isn't actually the panacea us non-Dutch think it is, not even slightly; and why "sustainable safety" is the real key to raising cycling participation.

    "Strict Liability has, at best, a very small role to play in keeping cyclists in the Netherlands safe.

    If we can engineer roads in a way that takes human failings into account and which results in crashes, injuries and deaths being less common then this is a far more reliable way to improve safety than any amount of punishment after the event."

    Posted 12 years ago #

  24. Calum
    Member

    Yes. For me the primary campaign goal is a structural separation of drivers and cyclists. Everything else is secondary or irrelevant.

    Any fool can book a flight to Amsterdam but it takes vision and bravery to radically alter every street in the country. That kind of thing requires more than change from the cash register and no amount of transparent PR stunts or junkets to NL changes the fact that the SNP, just like all the other main parties, are not interested in putting up the money.

    This is why cycling in Scotland faces a very bleak future of continuing stagnation and marginalisation. Unless political will is generated we will be sitting here in 2020 with a modal share of, at best, 2%. And they know this - all their cycling "initiatives" and "targets" are a mirage. I'm absolutely certain that if we ever have mass cycling in this country, that achievement will have had absolutely nothing to do with Keith Brown.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  25. Morningsider
    Member

    I agree that strict liability is a side issue. Are potential cyclists really put off by the thought that it might be tricky to get compensation if they are hit by a car - doubtful. I would argue that it's the thought of getting hit by a car that puts most off. Until that fear, which if pretty widespread, is dealt with then cycling will remain a niche activity.

    How do you deal with that fear - much better infrastructure. I can't see how anything else will work - you can train people, advertise cycling all you want - if people don't feel safe then they won't cycle.

    Posted 12 years ago #

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