CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

THE Helmet Thread

(895 posts)
  • Started 11 years ago by Wilmington's Cow
  • Latest reply from gembo

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  1. Snowy
    Member

    • Many people who do downhill at GlenTress believe risk is controlled and that roads are unsafe

    Hehe. I do all sorts, but the MTB scares me most :-)

    An MTB injuries study in Whistler health clinic last year found that of about 900 self-presenting, about 50% had upper limb fractures, and most of the rest had assorted grazes and scrapes. 10% had banged their heads.
    (Didn't include really serious cases (airlifted) or cases who self-treated, though.)

    I've no idea on equivalent road-riding injury rates. Might they sound similar?

    The point though (eventually) is that 10% figure.

    I don't think I've ever seen downhillers without helmets. Might be because an 'off' is usually a lot more spectacular...mine always are!

    Unfortunately in the study we can't tell how helmets affected what proportion of people went down from the category of 'seeking medical help' to the 'went home fine' category.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  2. Snowy
    Member

    Darn - I posted on the helmet thread. Was trying to avoid that.
    But while I'm here.

    In road cycling I'd suggest that there are broadly two scenarios?

    There's how well a helmet helps your KSI chances in straightforward contact with the ground, with no other traffic involvement. Reasonably effective?

    And then there's how well a helmet helps your KSI chances if you're crushed or rammed by several tonnes of fast moving metal. Probably not so much.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  3. steveo
    Member

    Anyway, I'm no stats expert, so perhaps all this is irrelevant. But, I will stand by my original point that there is far more variation within countries like Australia and Canada - for many many reasons - than here in the UK.

    Fair enough, I was just pondering wether that actually mattered.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  4. I always thought the UK was ridiculously varied in many ways considering its teeny size. Just look at accents and how they change completely within 20 miles. Right up through the country the differences are huge.

    I wonder if anyone has ever conducted a study of bicycle accidents against accents...

    Posted 11 years ago #
  5. wingpig
    Member

    "I wonder if anyone has ever conducted a study of bicycle accidents against accents..."

    It'd be a nightmare trying to control for concomitant variations in geography and associated population density/travel modes/rates and relevant risk-behaviour-related social attitudes (if assessing each accent in its area of predominant occurrence) or the effect of geographically variable upbringings on the owners of different accents even if the area of sampling was limited to one reasonably small geographical area.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  6. Nelly
    Member

    "Cycling at school being considered a bit like ski-ing where there is trend towards helmet wear"

    Agreed LB, and my son wears a helmet on his bike to school so I might sound hypocritical.

    The trend for helmets in snowsports started with extreme freestyle snowboarders and to a lesser extent off piste skiers (and why not, they take a lot of air, and risk their bonce a lot!) - this trend then turned 'trendy' as non-extreme boarders started wearing them to look 'rad' on the lifts.

    In a truly brilliant bit of marketing by helmet manufacturers, French ski hire companies now generally give an optional 'free' helmet with every hire. This started out with kiddies, and is now the norm with all age groups.

    My skiing / boarding mates and I have watched this phenomenon develop over the last few years - so much so that I am sad to say that some of them gave in and wear one as well - peer pressure and bad science seems to go a long way !!

    The 'extreme boarder' example in bikey world might be full face helmets on crazy downhills - and why not, as coming off and hitting a rock at 25 mph is not to be advised?

    which - IMO - is as far removed from my daily bike commuting as on-piste skiing is from the extreme boarder example I used above.

    I am all for choice, but having skied for 30+ years I found it odd that something has taken hold so completely when there was almost no need for it outside racing / stunts.

    But like I said, brilliant marketing.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  7. Bless you petit bicyclette, bless you.

    Now, we both (and indeed the rest of this forum) know i never called you an idiot. furthermore, I never inferred you are an idiot, though i do accept that part is open to interpretation.

    however, that brings me to an important point. If you conclude, from what I typed, that I categorically called you an idiot, then i would seriously question your ability to reasonably interpret statistics. That, IMHO seriously undermines your entire hypothesis re helmets.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  8. wee folding bike
    Member

    You did report your friend as saying so which is a sort of parliamentary trick for saying something without exactly saying it. You might not be allowed to call someone fat but you can say he takes a large size in a suit.

    So you don't accept your friend's idiot comment. Does that undermine your trust in their judgement on other things?

    Why is there a consistent mismatch between decreased mileage and injury rates?

    And Ron Mael is a rock god.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  9. Instography
    Member

    @Nelly
    Also, a few heavily publicised deaths linked to non-wearing of helmets.

    @Bikeability
    I read it more that you supported the view of your friend that anyone relying on statistics rather than safety equipment was an idiot. I must admit, much as I doubted the intent, I raised an eyebrow at such a potentially provocative view being posted. The potential for it to be inferred was obvious.

    Under the guise of working, I think I've read most of the published studies on helmet wearing. Seek them out, read them and get confused. Or you could read the overview by Ben Goldacre and David Spiegelhalter. You won't find a statistical answer.

    Still, statistics matter. While I'd agree that people shouldn't rely on them or cherry-pick them to bolster their debating position, their decisions should be informed by them otherwise people will be unduly influenced by the marketing and emotional blackmail that would lead them to make either harmless but useless expensive decisions or potentially harmful decisions that they think are going to be helpful. Neither of those is a positive outcome.

    Of course, at the end of the day, we are all free to make decisions, however poorly informed, but we shouldn't think that entitles us to enforce our decisions on anyone else.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  10. wee folding bike
    Member

    Were two of the ski deaths a Kennedy and Sonny Bono?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  11. Instography
    Member

    Can't remember. I remember one of them being a British child but might be mistaken. Google doesn't help - skiing deaths are easy enough to find but none of them ring a bell. I just recall news bulletins discussing skiing helmets, which were news to me having been happily allowed to ski as a child without them. So, a bit like cycling then.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  12. Nelly
    Member

    Sonny bono and the kennedy hit trees, unsure of circumstances.

    One I do remember was Natasha Richardson, then wife of liam neeson was one who had a low speed fall and subsequently died.

    Thing is, that was a freak event, and while sad the news coverage was stupid - equivalent of asking everyone to wear a lifejacket in the bath.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  13. rust
    Member

    Skiing helmets are an interesting one. I have heard that the only location where they have reduced head injuries is north America, due to the number of trees.

    I wear a helmet while skiing, but then I see it more akin to mountain biking - and I've previously used my gps to record my speed and got a top speed of 92 km/h.

    Another skiing example is avalanche airbags that inflate to keep you on top of the avalanche and prevent burial. One brand has a 97.5% success rate when deployed. The 2.5% was one person who deployed the airbag, but because it kept him on top of the avalanche he hit a tree.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  14. No tricks bike, I said "They told me anyone who relys on statistics instead of safety equipment to protect them in the event of an accident is an idiot."

    A bit of a leap claiming that was about you when it was clearly a generality. I think i also stated clearly their opinion made perfect sense to me, how on earth do you manage to interpret that as "So you don't accept your friend's idiot comment." Bizarre!

    "Why is there a consistent mismatch between decreased mileage and injury rates?" Is there? from how many studies in how many countries?

    How many people have been protected from injury by statistics or more badly injured by PPE than they otherwise might have been, as opposed to those prevented from greater injury by PPE?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  15. wee folding bike
    Member

    Would I be anyone or outwith the scope of anyone? Are yu calling me bizarre now?

    Well why don't you start by explaining the Austrailian and NZ outcome. You insist people wear these things. Tell me why you do that when these countries found that there is a mismatch between the fall in mileage and fall in serious injury.

    Actually quite a few people are protected by stats because they allow us to find out where likely risks exist. Are you familiar with John Snow or Florence Nightingale's rose diagram ?

    And you seem to persist in your assumption that a helmet is safer than no helmet but you have not demonstrated that.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  16. "No tricks bike, I said "They told me anyone who relys on statistics instead of safety equipment to protect them in the event of an accident is an idiot.""

    "I think i also stated clearly their opinion made perfect sense to me"

    "I never inferred you are an idiot"

    See, the thing is, if you say that someone else thinks people who don't wear helmets are idiots, then you say that you think that their opinion makes sense... Well... That's a pretty strong inference that 'everyone' who doesn't wear a helmet is an idiot.

    I mean, I know you say, "A bit of a leap claiming that was about you when it was clearly a generality" but surely if you're making a generality then it actually applies to the individuals within that generality? Otherwise it's a bit like the old Lenny Henry story of a cab driver complaining to him about black people, then turning round and saying, 'obviously I don't include you in that'.

    So, you agree that all people who don't wear helmets are idiots. Wee folding bike doesn't wear a helmet. QED surely that you think wfb is an idiot? And if not... Why not?

    You've missed your calling, should've been a politician...

    Posted 11 years ago #
  17. wee folding bike
    Member

    All of Alma Cogan is dead but not all dead people are Alma Cogan can't be far away.

    Holy Grail LP and possibly CD and download now.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  18. Wow massive leap! I thought we we talking about people who believe stats are a better form of protection than PPE, not folk who don't wear helmets. A good number of folk don't wear helmets for many different reasons. To assume they don't wear a helmet because they think that is safer than not wearing one beggars belief!

    Posted 11 years ago #
  19. "See, the thing is, if you say that someone else thinks people who don't wear helmets are idiots, then you say that you think that their opinion makes sense... Well..."

    Never said that either! nothing like it.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  20. Min
    Member

    I have a friend who once said "when you are in a hole, stop digging" and I agree with them.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  21. chdot
    Admin

    @Min

    Your friend sounds wise (I bet it's you really...)

    Posted 11 years ago #
  22. If I can help with that hole... You just said:

    "Never said that either! nothing like it."

    This all started with:

    "I tried to explain this discussion with a friend I consider to be one of the most intelligent people I have ever met.

    They told me anyone who relays on statistics instead of safety equipment to protect them in the event of an accident is an idiot. I'm glad I asked them because I understood that perfectly AND it made sense to me."

    So one of the most intelligent people you know says that people who don't wear helmets/safet equipment are idiots, and that makes sense to you...

    If there was still doubt you also said this:

    "They told me anyone who relys on statistics instead of safety equipment to protect them in the event of an accident is an idiot"

    Followed by this:

    "I think i also stated clearly their opinion made perfect sense to me"

    But I'd be willing to understand why saying that your friend thinks people who don't wear helmets are idiots, and that's an opinion that makes sense to you actually doesn't mean that. They are your own words after all...

    Posted 11 years ago #
  23. Where in the conversation with my friend did we discuss helmets?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  24. wingpig
    Member

    "Never said that either! nothing like it."

    Do you genuinely believe that there was no risk of implication or inference of that nature in your 'idiot' post or are you now trying to argue your way out of it?

    If you wanted to try and wriggle out of it you might have attempted to imply that anyone who doubts the efficacy of a bicycle helmet as an item of 'safety equipment' would, by their different interpretation of the definition of 'safety equipment', not be implicated as an idiot by your associate's assertion in relation to someone's idiocy being determined by their reliance on the use of statistics instead of 'safety equipment'.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  25. "Where in the conversation with my friend did we discuss helmets?"

    So in a helmet thread, in a discussion on helmets, and references to helmets being viewed by people as safety equipment, your comment about safety equipment was about....? It doesn't really make sense in the context of the discussion prior to it, which you were engaging in, to suddenly make a shift to hi-viz or lights (and certainly not without mentioning it and simply leaving the 'safety' thing hanging there with no carve-out of helmets)...

    But let's face it, you did mean helmets, and you do agree that people who don't wear them are idiots...

    (for what it's worth, I'm not picking this up because of my own helmet use - I wear one all of the time now - but quite simply because you were being rather nasty to wfb and then frantically and unconvincingly trying to cover your tracks with u-turns on meaning that any government would be proud of).

    Posted 11 years ago #
  26. Instography
    Member

    Anyway, it's not at all idiotic to think that there might be a sound statistical (or at least numerical) basis for rejecting an item of protective equipment on the basis of increased risk or higher costs compared with not wearing one.

    We could, at an individual level, undertake a basic cost-benefit analysis of helmet wearing or not wearing and show, depending on what values we attach to some of the variables, that there is more risk associated with wearing a helmet than not. You could go further and attach notional value to injury and non-injury costs (such as discomfort, perspiration, feeling cowed into submission by an irritating social norm etc) and conclude, again non-idiotically, that the costs of helmet-wearing outweigh the benefits, especially when the costs, even if they are minor, accrue all the time the helmet is being worn (and maybe even when it's not being worn) but the benefits are only realised if you experience an incident within the operational limits of a helmet.

    I think this last point is important because the benefits of helmets are routinely overstated. At low speeds, where the shell doesn't break and the foam doesn't compress, you might as well not have been wearing it and there's a plausible argument that the larger melon creates impact that might have been less with a bare head. In high speed collisions, well outside the operating limits of the helmet, it also confers no benefit so we're talking about a pretty narrow range within which incidents can 'usefully' occur to get the benefits of the helmet. Yet the costs are still borne all the time.

    It's on the basis of that kind of non-scientific assessment of costs and benefits that I decide not to wear a helmet and presumably also on that basis that I'd fall into your friend's idiot category. I generally regard the risks of cycling-related injury as so close to zero as to be not worthy of mitigation, especially when avoidance is so much easier. I rely, in effect, on probability rather than safety equipment. If I rated the risk of cycling-related injury much above zero I'd probably stop doing it.

    So, elaborate: explain to me why I'm an idiot.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  27. wee folding bike
    Member

    History is replete with instances of belief being beggared.

    Indeed, and I don't have any stats to back this one up, it could be that beggary is the rule rather than the exception with beliefs.

    Argument from personal incredulity hasn't been enough since Galileo dropped balls off the Leaning Tower of Pisa.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  28. Cow, you couldn't be more wrong.

    My argument is SOLELY about bikes claim that wearing a helmet increases the wearers chances of being hurt, nothing more

    I also think that's pretty obvious if you read the posts properly. I suspect you know that though but just want to put a wee boot in on behalf of your pal.

    Bikes assertion that wearing a helmet is putting kids at a greater risk makes no sense and bike has put no evidence forward to prove this but instead relies only on his/her theory about risk compensation. No amount of deliberate misquoting of me changes the fact that is ALL I have been questioning.

    This, together with the PM sideswipes is a pretty sad way to behave just to try to 'win' an argument.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  29. Er. Okay.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  30. wee folding bike
    Member

    No PMs from me. I was too busy last night revelling in the rapture that is Ron Mael (and Russell too).

    Did I mention risk compensation? I might have done and missed it but I'd be indebted if you could point it out.

    I find last year's Canadian paper interesting in the context of safety in numbers which is sometimes suggested as a mechanism for the increased rate of serious injury following an MHL.

    I await your explanation of why serious injury rates do not decline at the same rate as miles cycled when an MHL is instituted.

    To my knowledge I've never met Wilmington but I did grow up in Ayrshire and spent many hours idly feeding grass to cows. I have been to Edinburgh and even purchased two bikes there (Bromptons in Bike Trax). I'll be there on Friday with a bunch of Scouts. I'm not an Akela but number 2 son is a Scout and the memsahib told me to go with him. Easy to spot as I'll have no bike and will be wearing Craghopper kit, Dr Martens boots and a Lowe Alpine or Tilley hat.

    Posted 11 years ago #

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