CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".
IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 15years old!
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RULES No personal insults. No swearing.
@rust
Maybe I am being over cautious, but if you are listening to music, IMO your concentration for road hazards is compromised - regardless of the delivery method (which, by the way is very neat!).
I have had two more friends come off and crack helmets recently - then give me the usual lecture on lids.
One of them listens to music en route to/from work, but I have managed to refrain from mentioning that may have been a factor as I'm pro choice !!
I'm not sure listening to music compromises you all that much, particularly on a cycle where you're generally more attuned to road hazards anyway. I suspect it's a bigger problem for car drivers in their metal boxes but, even then, there would appear to be no, or limited, data to suggest this ... otherwise there'd be far more of a rumpus about banning music in cars.
I cycled for years with no headphones, but with no opinion on the use of them or otherwise. Over the past year, I now rarely cycle without music, and it's loud music I'm playing.
The music doesn't distract me, I feel, any more than having no music and letting my wind wander over the day's past or coming problems does.
I certainly don't feel that being unable to hear traffic makes me more susceptible to an incident. I always check over my shoulder when necessary anyway; others may forget now and again, but would having no music on prevent that? And does anyone actually hear and distinguish an upcoming hazardous vehicle amongst the general traffic noise anyway?
I think headphones simply joins in with helmets, lycra and alleged smugness as a reason for the great uninitiated out there to have a go at cyclists.
The problems resulting in the deaths of cyclists are, as ever;
Bad driving (careless or dangerous? Surely, by definition, if you're driving 'carelessly' with a ton of metal, then you're driving 'dangerously'?)
Inadequate punishment for bad driving.
Inadequate cycling infrastructure
Inadequate rear-view systems for large vehicles. "In the blind spot" is an excuse that simply shouldn't be plausible. Large vehicles can easily be fitted with enough mirrors and/or tv cameras to render any such claim as idiotic.
And does anyone actually hear and distinguish an upcoming hazardous vehicle amongst the general traffic noise anyway?
I do
So do I. Invaluable advance warning of how fast a vehicle is approaching and whether they are decelerating or speeding up. Better than mirrors.
And while you're riding along a road, and hear a car suddenly accelerating behind, without knowing what its position on the road is, how does your riding change? Genuinely interested, do you swerve to the side because of that? How often do you get that feeling, and how often and how do you react?
Well, for example, if I'm heading towards a pinch point I might brake so we don't arrive at the same time. Or If I am about to arrive at a red light, I might realize that some t*t is about to overatke me as I stop. It can also give warning of a potential left hook well before the car passes you.
Situational awareness is never a bad thing
My stock comment in this situation is "should deaf people not ride then?" though I guess if you've got all of your faculties then removing one might be ill advised.
I'm just not sure if I ever actually adjust based on what I hear behind. If I hear an engine revving as a light to turns to red as I approach then I don't really know what I can do (other than swerve?). Approaching a pinch point, or turning, I will always, always do a shoulder check, rather than just relying on my hearing (you could argue that just listening rather than looking is more dangerous, and removing one of your faculties, and if you look then surely that negates the need to listen).
Potential left hook, I guess, so presumably when you're approaching every junction on the left and hear a car behind that might have... A louder engine note? then you slow down?
For what it's worth I don't ride with headphones (I did try for a week in order to write an article, where I determined that I felt no less safe, but actually music while riding annoyed me). What I would say is that everyone who hasn't tried it, who thinks it's bad, should maybe try it, just once?
Not entirely disconnected, I do sometimes find that wind noise can make hearing difficult (not necessarily through going fast, even if just a strong headwind). This might help....
Levels of background noise differ. So as WC says it shouldn't be a factor in the pro and anti on bike entertainment debate. Bike training focuses on observation and hearing isn't mentioned (or wasn't when I did it).
I do tend to keep clear of fast cars with ultra-
bright lights as they show 'intent'. Even though they have no 'right'.
I was thinking some more about this, and to be fair the other day I'd just left the house, and there's a downhill to a pinch point in a 20 zone. I knew there was a van behind me, and had looked to see how close he was (too close), but with parked cars and speed cushions and traffic coming the other way, I made myself 'big' (ie primary, a couple of eye contact backward glances etc.) and while looking forward I was aware of the engine noise, and listening out for a higher Rev to see if he'd overtake. But I did know he was there anyway, and I think would still have been prepared if he did something daft.
All of that said, for the times I'm wearing a helmet, I think I might get those cats ears and see if they work....
I don't ride with headphones but more because I've tried it and didn't like it more than feeling less safe. I do wonder what the sound of the truck thats about to hit you is?
I've had close passes by buses (First generally) on Corstorphine Road where the first I was aware of it was its wake; wind noise (I was doing 30ish) and long vehicle with engine at rear meant I couldn't hear it or take evasive manoeuvres, had I needed to swerve it would have been game over.
Ooh, helmet thread in not-about-helmets excitement!
I think we all use hearing to some extent whilst cycling, even if it's no more than keeping an ear out for sirens. I've certainly noticed I pick up emergency vehicles much earlier than the cars around me.
Even with mirrors, I still often pick up vehicles first with hearing, and it's also handy coming up to blind junctions. I'll give a car where the occupant is griding the clutch more space than a well-controlled vehicle, as another example.
Deaf people are definitely disadvantaged, but only to the extent that everyone driving inside a sealed box is.
Although: Rospa advanced driving teaches drivers to have a window lowered in urban areas to give some sense of hearing back. (Fun bonus fact; the book also suggests that your sense of smell is also handy, citing cut grass giving advanced warning of one of those hedge-trimming tractors. I always felt that was a bit of a stretch...)
PS: I've already got a set of the Aftershockz Bluez bone conduction headphones on my birthday list. I'm even willing to overlook the name.
@wc If I am aware of an accelerating noise, then I'll go over that rough tarmac in front of me rather than getting ready to avoid it. Or I'll adjust the timing of when I come out for that parked car coming up. Or pull in to the kerb at the ASZ rather that sitting out in it, in case the car is going to jump through. Stuff like that.
@stiltskin
If I'm heading toward a pinchpoint, I'll be getting ready to adopt primary in a very timely fashion, so will have made 2 or 3 over the shoulder checks ... I'd have seen any approaching hazard from the rear before I move into primary.
Whether it's pinchpoints or narrow roads, I'll be in primary; I won't ever be thinking it's safer to move over to the left to let some idiot try and squeeze past me, because it isn't safer, and I won't have moved into primary without a couple of over the shoulder checks.
If someone wants to overtake me as I pull up to a red, then that's his problem (and the problem for whoever he may hit). If his intention is to drive through me as I stop, no amount of listening beforehand will help me in that situation.
I don't really buy that it will help identify a potential left hook either ... if you're going to be left hooked, it's by a car behind you. If it's a concern that a car behind you may left hook you, that could be any car really, and you'd be better off making an over the shoulder check at every potential left hook opportunity.
In my experience, the wind does more to dampen the sound of traffic than in-ear headphones do. If I ride with my earphones in, I will generally take them out when I get to town, not because I need my hearing so much as because I need to pay attention - I'm usually listening to Radio 4 or a podcast which can be quite distracting - it's hard to concentrate on a dissection of the finer points of Greek thought with Melvin Bragg (essential if I'm to keep up with the more abstruse discussions on this forum) while simultaneously gauging what the drivers in their tin boxes with their radios on and their smart phones in view are about to do without noticing I'm there ...
@b-t-t. I'm sorry, but having to look over your shoulder as often as you suggest implies that maybe one might be better just listening out. The point is, I can be in primary approaching a pinch point and become aware that someone is going to try an overtake even thought the space isn't there.
I don't really buy that it will help identify a potential left hook either ... if you're going to be left hooked, it's by a car behind you. Nope. It will be a car that you can hear accelerating from behind you which then moves in as it passes. You don't get left hooked by cars which are behind, they at least move alongside first. You will get an extra clue from its engine note as to its intentions.
I'm not saying headphones = instant death, but on a bike I like to be aware as I can be of what is happening around me. Sound is part of that mental picture & I am never sufficiently bored on a bike to need an artificial stimulation like music.
I wear and do not wear headphones an almost equal amount. I notice very little difference ... UNLESS I'm really tired, but then I noticed that I tend to be more likely to seek out headphones to cheer me up...
I like them because they dampen the noise of buses, motorbikes and things that give me a bit of a shock when they roar past. (I'm usually aware but sometimes the noise is a bit much).
"You will get an extra clue from its engine note as to its intentions."
But does the engine note tell you it's going to be a left hook, or someone just accelerating to go past? Those two things surely sound the same, so if someone is overtaking you as you approach a left junction you have to slow every time? Again I rely a lot on sight - you will see a left-hooking car ("they at least move alongside first"), and often see the indicator (as so many left hookers seem to think that then renders you invisible) or the actual driver looking at the junction or turning the wheel - both of which I'd say were a more accurate and immediate indication of an impending left hook than hearing a car behind accelerate...?
Put it this way way. If there is traffic behind you, it is often necessary to monitor what it is doing. You can of course do this by looking over your shoulder every few seconds . Alternatively you can eyeball the problem, then monitor it by sound while paying attention to other threats ahead. To me the latter is a: much easier and b: gives you much more flexibility to assess the all round traffic situation. In the case of a left hook. If I hear a car accelerating then beginning to slow hard as it approaches me and the junction, I am beginning to suspect a left hook is imminent. Forewarned is forearmed.
As an aside, I always feel that if people paid more attention to what they were doing, the roads would be safer places. & from a Zen perspective, living for the moment and experiencing what life is presenting you with, is better than seeking distractions as you go. If you are riding your bike. Ride your bike. Don't concentrate on something else.
Suspect the debate will go nowhere with seemingly disparate philosophies on cycling :)
I'm not necessarily seeking distraction when I ride, but one of the joys for me is being able to take in more when cycling compared to driving. Being able to appreciate the view, or spotting something on a building, or looking out for wildlife as you pass through a specific area, rather than just head down get on with riding. Which is probably why I'm not that great at training - though getting better, and going out at lunchtimes 'without' the camera has helped.
Could maintain the discussion over left hooks and what signifies them and what's the best approach, but as noted above, probably all a bit circular in the end.
Like I say, I don't ride listening to music, but don't mind if folk do, their choice. I don't always wear a helmet, sometimes do, don't mind those who do and those who don't. I don't wear fluouro, but don't mind if other people want to. We're a broad church of opinions and approaches, and long may that continue. :)
No matter what / how/ etc etc you ride, as long as you do. Which is zen enough for me.
It takes me 40 minutes to ride into town, vs 20 minutes to drive so I sometimes want to make the most of that extra time. Sometimes I spend it in the zen moment (usually when there's a timber lorry threatening to sideswipe me into the dyke). Sometimes I daydream so much I find myself at the outskirts of town wondering how on earth that happened (thank god I don't drive, eh?). Sometimes I choose to pass the time with a podcast or the radio in my ear. There's only so much enjoyment one can get out of the same ride, especially on a grim day grinding into a headwind. Horses for courses
There's only so much enjoyment one can get out of the same ride, especially on a grim day grinding into a headwind.
I never said it was about enjoyment :-)
I do the same run to work every day so in the morning I listen to Today on the wireless and in the afternoon I listen to an audiobook. This month it's the third section of Ackroyd's biography of London.
Last weekend I was rolling round London listening to Madness.
I was passed by a person on a nice looking Dutch-style bike this morning who said to my be-helmeted stoker as they went by 'your Daddy should be wearing a helmet too'.
I thought that was completely out of order, for a whole range of reasons.
A bit like the skirt weather debate: you might think it but don't say it.
It was a bit misty in the west this morning and cow-orker asked why I wasn't wearing yellow.
I suggested that responsibility lies more with those using the heavy machinery in the public arena.
Whilst I always wear high viz and a helmet wearing such gear makes no difference to a lot of blind/uncaring/stupid people that use our roads.
The day I was knocked down it was perfect visibility and I was wearing high viz on a road with extremely clear sight lines.
People driving need to open their eyes and pay attention.
In a similar example to Greenroofer's, on the weekend, mini-hank & I went on solo bikes to get our hair cut. Heading for the Broomhall chicane, a pedestrian told mini-hank that he should be on the back of dad's bike.
No idea what his angle was with that comment, but it really perplexed us, so much so that mini-hank told all his friends at school, who must be even more perplexed.
I don't think random comments from strangers should be taken seriously, but then I'm not 6.
Do they still teach children to always say no to strangers. Seems appropriate for both these strangers.
When I see a child in a bikeseat I often think about saying 'best way to travel', but it never seems like a good idea to actually say it.
Did he mean on your back wheel and was actually just suggesting racing tactics?
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