Rob, if the same applied to a cyclist who had taken out a 90s bike with side-pull brakes instead of a 2015 bike with disc brakes... yes.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
THE Helmet Thread
(895 posts)-
Posted 8 years ago #
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Well indeed. There are many non-mandatory safety/protective devices which could be applied to any mode of transport. So why is helmet+cyclist the only combination[1] you'd potentially[2] be negligent for ignoring?
I had thought it might be because general opinion is that wearing a helmet when cycling is basic common sense but the German appeal seems to suggest the opposite.
[1] I'm assuming (though could be very wrong) that noone has attempted to claim contributory negligence based on lack of knee pads when cycling or helmets when walking.
[2] While neither of the above cases met the criteria, both suggested it was a possibility in certain scenarios.
Posted 8 years ago # -
"There are many non-mandatory safety/protective devices which could be applied to any mode of transport. So why is helmet+cyclist the only combination[1] you'd potentially[2] be negligent for ignoring?"
Except they're not. Plenty cases with people doing things that are non-mandatory, but which were deemed to be contributory negligence (including as a pedestrian crossing a road away from a designated crossing point - to the tune of a 40% reduction!
This is a genuinely huge area of law, but I may actually have an old delict book somewhere in the loft. May enlist the help of a friend who is a lecturing professor as well, rather than relying on my background knowledge in practice. But I used to enjoy discussions about this kind of thing, so it has re-sparked an interest.
Posted 8 years ago # -
That example is a non-mandatory action which contributed to the incident occurring. Two parties making poor choices which combined to cause a collision so blame is shared.
Helmets are slightly different as wearing one can only reduce the impact of a collision*, not prevent it.
*maybe, let's not get into that.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Apologies, you'd raised the brakes query in an earlier post, then the example of old versus new cars, and they both still fit into the 'making a choice when a better one is open'. But I can see what you mean now about the non-mandatory use of items specifically designed, or believed, to mitigate the effects of an impact after it happens.
Choosing between an old and a new car may still work as an example if the new car has an airbag, but there are quite a few other examples that are more on point with the helmet example as well.
As I say, leave this with me, it's likely to turn into a dissertation, so might be a week or so, but I'll be back.
Posted 8 years ago # -
"As I say, leave this with me, it's likely to turn into a dissertation, so might be a week or so, but I'll be back."
Oh no.
CCE the home of real experts!
Posted 8 years ago # -
I'll never attain my dream of joining the Conservative Party!
Posted 8 years ago # -
It occurred to me that this:
"You should wear
a cycle helmet which conforms to current regulations, is the correct size and securely fastened"
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/rules-for-cyclists-59-to-82Combined with this:
"Although failure to comply with the other rules of the Code will not, in itself, cause a person to be prosecuted, The Highway Code may be used in evidence in any court proceedings under the Traffic Acts (see The road user and the law) to establish liability. This includes rules which use advisory wording such as ‘should/should not’ or ‘do/do not’."
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/introductionMay be the answer to my earlier questions.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Disposable paper bicycle hats. Yay!
Posted 8 years ago # -
I actually like that idea for Christmas parties and the like; occasions where its intrinsic honeycomb strength is less likely to be tested with the weight of an HGV
Posted 8 years ago # -
I like it algo, dispenser at the pub door rather than on bike racks!
Seems like a good solution for those that are minded to wear one.
Posted 8 years ago # -
I actually like that idea for Christmas parties and the like
The design is identical to a paper lantern Christmas decoration from my childhood. You are suggesting hanging it up as bike tinsel?
Posted 8 years ago # -
Are you suggesting Christmas parties are dangerous, or are you saying 'always prepare for the unexpected?...
Posted 8 years ago # -
Forgive my cynicism - I should keep it to myself. I'm actually thinking I could make an easily stored whole Christmas tree alternative.... a bit like these:
Posted 8 years ago # -
Helmets now compulsory for under 11s in France.
http://road.cc/content/news/215619-france-makes-cycle-helmets-compulsory-children-aged-11-and-under
Posted 7 years ago # -
Why under 12? Is this a completely arbitrary age, or is there a rationale (got a French word in, winner) to the legislation??
Posted 7 years ago # -
Further erosion of the right to ride without wearing a 'special' hat.
Start at 12 and everyone says, "Oh yes, that sounds like common sense". Then later say, well why doesn't this cover adults as well...
Posted 7 years ago # -
I am away skiing this weekend and will be the only one of our group of 6 friends not wearing a helmet.
None of them wore one learning as kids.
Creeping regulation.
Posted 7 years ago # -
I held out a long time in spite of regularly being asked 'why don't you wear a helmet?' but eventually bought one as I began to ski terrain where head injuries are far more likely (off piste through trees and rocky areas)
On piste, eh, they're really not necessary and being normalised by mandatory use in children's lessons everywhere and anywhere. It noticeably numbs my ability to hear my surroundings compared to a hat because of the thick insulated earpads.
Of course, usual shock stories of 'my friend/partner/child died after falling on a blue run' apply.
Posted 7 years ago # -
but eventually bought one as I began to ski terrain where head injuries are far more likely (off piste through trees and rocky areas)
But would you take such risks in the first place if not wearing a helmet?
After having a one or two scary moments* off-piste, I can safely say I will never be skiing off piste again. Just far too risky.
*Falling down holes, losing skis, etc...
Posted 7 years ago # -
For me skiing is like mountain biking and I tend to be pushing the limits of staying upright, therefore wearing a helmet makes sense.
Most off-piste risks can be suitably managed - though all too often people ski off-piste without an avalanche transceiver, shovel and probe - and the ability to use them effectively.
Posted 7 years ago # -
"I tend to be pushing the limits of staying upright"
Heh, I'm still aspiring to staying upright at all...
Posted 7 years ago # -
But would you take such risks in the first place if not wearing a helmet?
No. I specifically avoided tree skiing at all due to the additional risk of head injury and I consider a helmet to be suitable mitigation against the additional risk.
The main injuries I've observed amongst those who I ski with are knee ligament injury, as skis are giant levers with which your legs can be un-naturally rotated, and shoulder dislocation from falling. There's two separate surveys shown here that broadly support my anecdata. While head injuries are a risk, I'd consider a helmet to be as necessary as one cycling. Nobody's suggested I get a knee brace just in case.
By and large I've always aspired to reduce my risk by skiing better, staying in control and practising defensive behaviour around others - just like driving. I fall very very little.
Posted 7 years ago # -
And as is always the way with anything on a "helmet" thread...I disagree entirely.
The main way knee injuries are prevented is by having correctly setup skis that release before damage is done. The inevitable result of this is a crash. The built in failsafe will result in a situation where a head injury is possible.
Snow is also inherently unpredictable. Powder here, ice there, a crust that might support your weight on one turn but not the next. Much more akin to MTBing where the conditions under tyre change continually and helmet wearing is pretty much a given, rather than road cycling where the range of conditions is smaller.
I try to ski better, but I also try to ski more challenging terrain, occasionally in remote areas.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Eddie h Start at 12 and everyone says, "Oh yes, that sounds like common sense". Then later say, well why doesn't this cover adults as well...
OR do they cast off the bunnet as soon as they hit 12 as they are a proper grown up now?
Posted 7 years ago # -
Concussion vs skull fracture
http://www.ted.com/talks/david_camarillo_why_helmets_don_t_prevent_concussions_and_what_might?
Posted 7 years ago # -
"The big bike helmet debate: 'You don’t make it safe by forcing cyclists to dress for urban warfare'"
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/mar/21/bike-helmet-cyclists-safe-urban-warfare-wheels
Posted 7 years ago # -
I noticed at the park on Saturday that there were no children on bikes who did not have a helmet, and that many of the children on scooters also had helmets.
I also noticed that a considerable proportion of the children wearing helmets had them on incorrectly: either the helmet was too small (so perched on top of their head) or too far back with too much forehead exposed. I also saw several still wearing helmets while on the play equipment, which most helmet instructions will advise against because of the risk of strangulation.
The conclusion I drew is a depressing one. Firstly that there is creeping compulsion for children to wear helmets for a growing number of very benign activities, and secondly that the parent who provided these helmets hadn't thought deeply about this, and weren't actually providing any of the benefits they thought from putting the helmet on the child. It felt like "(s)he's got a helmet on, so will be OK". If they had read the instructions, they would have fitted the helmet properly and made sure it was the right size and wouldn't have let their child wear it on the play equipment.
A growing number of these activities have moved from things that kids just 'did', to something that needs special equipment and (therefore) adult supervision. I find it very sad.
Posted 7 years ago # -
I was asked to do the TourdeForth charity ride. Looks quite good, but on the FAQs they insist on a helmet!!!
Event info also states it's a requirement "obvious but essential" .
I find that really annoying - and frankly means I can't do the ride as i wont be browbeaten on this.
Now, off to get a warmer hat, chilly this morning
Posted 7 years ago # -
Nelly, you probably only need it on at the start and finish? Hard to enforce on the route?think it is linked to insurance but I have never tried to organise such an event. Got HG round the forth though is nice.
Posted 7 years ago #
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