CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

THE Helmet Thread

(895 posts)
  • Started 11 years ago by Wilmington's Cow
  • Latest reply from gembo

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  1. Instography
    Member

    I like the way people keep trying to prove or disprove something that can't be proven or disproven. The paper that SRD posted a link to today would be useful for WFB and Two Tired since it would allow them both to right. Essentially, one of the problems with current helmet designs is that they work best at impacts towards the upper end of the test speed where the foam compresses and the plastic cracks but they do almost nothing at low speeds where the foam doesn't compress and so forces are barely dissipated and instead are transmitted more or less undiminished to the brain. That was the gist of it, I think.

    In once sense, Baldcyclist's examples of people use their own contradictory experiences to come to opposing conclusions demonstrates that while individual experiences and beliefs are often OK for making your own decisions (provided they do no harm to anyone else), they are no basis for public policy. But sadly, as Ben Goldacre (and many others demonstrate) the science is pretty lacking too.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  2. wee folding bike
    Member

    So we might be better listening to his mum?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  3. Baldcyclist
    Member

    "
    the oncologist is being an eejit to trust their personal experience over the monkeybuttloads of epidemiological evidence
    "

    40 years ago the epidemiological evidence wasn't there, but the oncologists were still anecdotally saying smoking was killing people...

    Posted 11 years ago #
  4. Two Tired
    Member

    @ wee folding bike. Either I have misunderstood what you were saying earlier:

    No, it's not that simple. The plastic hat has mass. Increasing the mass of the head increases the kinetic energy. The kinetic energy increase with velocity, the absorption characteristics of the hat are fixed.

    Or

    The cancellation thing is that if you are saying the kinetic energy increases because the mass has increased (from wearing a helmet and assuming same velocity). You also have to say that the amount of energy required to cancel out that kinetic energy increases. It is the same mass in both equations.

    I am starting to think thought that I did misunderstand you. Are you saying that the additional amount of energy the helmet can absorb is fixed so that for high velocity impacts it is only a small percentage of what is needed? If so then we have no disagreement.

    As for this thread in general. I have just been attempting to input a little physics/sound scientific methodology into the discussion. Wear a helmet/don't wear a helmet see if I care :-)

    Posted 11 years ago #
  5. wee folding bike
    Member

    Ahhhh, but other people do care and they exclude us from their organised rides or pester us to wear a hat or call us bad parents.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  6. gembo
    Member

    A helmet is not necessary and affords the amount of protection indicated on the manufacturer's spec.

    You can choose to wear one or not.

    An argument against compulsion (I am not in favour of compulsion) is that it puts people off cycling.

    But there is no compulsion in this country, the guy who cycled down between two lanes of traffic at ardmillan and right into the middle of the road whilst the lights were at red, quick shoulder check to see no one coming off the western approach road was going straight on and then turned right wasn't wearing a helmet tonight.

    And people are still put off cycling. I suggest because of the traffic.? Energy should be spent in campaigning for better infrastructure and better driving enforced by strict liability not this helmet red herring with both sides presenting opinion as fact.

    I vote for this thread to be closed please.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  7. allebong
    Member

    I recall the purpose of this thread was to contain all helmet related arguments/civil debates to prevent spillage into and derailment of other threads. The spokes helmet decision one was already closed for that reason - if you care to read it I elected to start the argument going again so I guess you can blame that on me...oh my.

    Unless we are prepared to have a total ban on helmet discussion it would be best to keep the debates to this thread only.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  8. Uberuce
    Member

    Baldcyclist: 40 years ago the epidemiological evidence wasn't there, but the oncologists were still anecdotally saying smoking was killing people...

    ...and they turned out to be right. Is your argument that this means A&E consultants will also turn out to be right?

    The biggest reason I have for wearing my helmet less and less is risk compensation by proxy. I just can't shake off the impression that I get more room from drivers when I'm lidless than when I'm not.

    The highly unreliable(because they're all sane) sampling I've taken among non-cycling drivers of my acquaintance is that they feel more nervous around a lidless jeansy rider than a commutowarrior.

    That to me suggests that on balance, you're better off lidless since the risk from motor vehicle collision so supremely outweighs the risk from a fall that a helmet can save.

    To go back to my canal analogy, it's the difference between wearing a raincoat and tiptoing along the edge of the canal or wearing a T-shirt and walking by the wall.

    I'm prepared to eat my hat(and then buy a helmet to replace it) if some good data comes in that says I'm wrong, and it won't even have to be that good, because look at how fuzzy my language has been: 'seems' 'impression' 'sane' ...

    Posted 11 years ago #
  9. SRD
    Moderator

    "Energy should be spent in campaigning for better infrastructure and better driving enforced by strict liability "

    yes. please. has everyone on this thread written to their councillors and MSPs in recent months? if not, please do that first. then resume debate.

    thank you!

    Posted 11 years ago #
  10. Greenroofer
    Member

    The people in this debate who choose to wear helmets are doing so thoughtfully, and aware (I think) of the benefits and shortcomings of wearing a helmet. That is good.

    I get cross with people who wear (or allow others to wear) them thoughtlessly, particularly parents. For goodness sake, they come with instructions. The instructions say wear it so it covers your forehead. It won't do much good on the back of your head (or of your child's head). I do not allow my children (8 and 4) to put their own helmets on unsupervised.

    "I'm wearing a helmet, so I must be safe" or "You're wearing a helmet, so you must be safe". No, you're only safer, and only if you put the thing on properly.

    ...and they are no use at all if they are dangling from your handlebars, are they? (this seems to be the trend on the towpath at the moment).

    Posted 11 years ago #
  11. shuggiet
    Member

    ah spotted... I'm an occasional handle bar dangler on the towpath... I do it because if it's raining a helmet does the best job of keeping my spectacles slightly clearer, and I haven't graduated into the cap wearing fraternity. If it's not raining I take it off, and leave it dangling in a 'it's not going to get caught in the wheel way'. Or leave it at home if it's a sunny day...

    Posted 11 years ago #
  12. wee folding bike
    Member

    Uberuce,

    You are aware of Ian Walker's work?

    http://www.drianwalker.com/overtaking/

    Posted 11 years ago #
  13. Uberuce
    Member

    The wig trick is unlikely to work for me, but it's the study I have in mind, yursh.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  14. gembo
    Member

    @allebong

    Fair enough, it is just we have had all these opinions dressed as fact trotted out by both sides several times and it never gets anywhere.

    Plenty of rigorous minds on this forum, but that rigour is rarely applied to the cited papers which are all a bit weak as opinion clouds the judgement.

    However thisnisnthenthird helmet war and the forum has not imploded.

    On the wig, helmet research, which is about the best of a bad bunch, I think Sorry Mate I saw you were wearing a helmet is an uncommon remark whereas anyone who has ever been hit or close shave etc will be subjected to SMIDSY. The drivers who see you are not the ones we have to worry about.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  15. Charterhall
    Member

    As with most things, wearing a helmet has pros and cons. In some circumstances I judge that for me the pros outweigh the cons, in other circumstances vice versa. So sometimes I wear one, sometimes not. We should all be free to make that choice.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  16. rust
    Member

    mkns,

    Is your point merely that I cannot prove that I would have had a serious injury, since it didn't actually happen?

    While I'd say pretty much, yes, I would want to drop the "merely". I think it's quite an important point, even if it seems a little pedantic.

    The problem with the helmet discussion is that it gets easily side tracked with people claiming hard facts when they don't have them. I'm against threads like this being closed as I think it's an important discussion to have. Maybe it's less important than trying to get improved cycling infrastructure or strict liability, but it definitely has it's place.

    Maybe a better way to look at the whole argument is to think about what evidence we'd like to see collected?
    If we were to try and look at a helmets effectiveness (purely in a mechanical sense, ignoring effects of cycling uptake), how would we go about it? Obviously there's got to be some simplifications, but what would we consider to be the initial important information to ascertain?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  17. "Fair enough, it is just we have had all these opinions dressed as fact trotted out by both sides several times and it never gets anywhere.

    Plenty of rigorous minds on this forum, but that rigour is rarely applied to the cited papers which are all a bit weak as opinion clouds the judgement."

    I actually think this discussion has gone into interesting areas on the physics and so on. And yeah, it's supposed to be a self-contained thread, so everyone can get off their chest what they want about helmets, and if any other thread looks like spilling into the helmet area we can direct that discussion here.

    Seems to be working - I think everyone, even with completely opposing views, is contributing something to this and it's a little unlike most helmet threads I've seen in other places!

    Posted 11 years ago #
  18. amir
    Member

    "If we were to try and look at a helmets effectiveness (purely in a mechanical sense, ignoring effects of cycling uptake), how would we go about it?"

    I think the point of the Goldacre and Spiegelhalter paper is that you cannot ignore the wider issues. Tests on the mechanical effectiveness of helmets have and are being done. For example, there are various standards that apply. However, experiments can only take you so far - the conditions need to be very specific. Consideration of wider issues takes us into the world of observation, which is trickier than experimentation.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  19. neddie
    Member

    It is a matter of simple indisputable physics that a helmet will reduce the force and hence acceleration on the head during an impact

    This is not true.

    Some helmets can actually increase the force (or contact stress) transmitted to the head. Why...?

    Because of things like vents and peaked brows. The vents mean that the surface area of polystyrene touching the head can be very small. When you transmit a force through a small area a large contact stress is created (stress = force / area). Same for a peaked brow, stresses are concentrated at the peak.

    As for brain injury, the brain is most vulnerable to rotational accelerations, something which a helmet may worsen.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  20. Two Tired
    Member

    Some helmets can actually increase the force (or contact stress) transmitted to the head.

    This would be true if you were talking about a helmet made out of a material with a far higher compressive strength. Not for EPS foam.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  21. Baldcyclist
    Member

    "
    The vents mean that the surface area of polystyrene touching the head can be very small.
    "

    Peaks, maybe, but vents?? If you smack your round head off a flat object (just an example, object can vary), the contact area may still be small compared with the area of the object you are hitting. What then happens is that the energy is dissipated around your head after impact.

    Put a helmet in the way, even one with vents and the same thing happens, small surface area against large as you correctly say it almost magnifies the energy at the point of contact (as it would with a bare head), but with a helmet on the energy is them dissipated around the helmet before hitting your head.

    You can argue about whether sufficient energy has been dissipated before it reaches your head, but importantly energy has been dissipated before contact.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  22. Baldcyclist
    Member

    @Uberuce I'm not saying there WILL be evidence, but there certainly MAY be, we just don't know yet...

    Someone mentioned earlier about helmets being a red herring (sorry, can't remember who) in the debate, and what we should be doing is creating safer roads, punishing bad driving, and be involved in driver education.

    Yep I agree with all of those statements except "helmets are a red herring", how can they be? We should be doing all of those things, but the fact is that TODAY we don't live in that Utopia.

    It seems to me a bit like saying "house alarms are a red herring", what we should be dealing with is drug abuse and petty criminals. Again TODAY we don't live in that Utopia despite huge amounts of money, research, and resource being put into that. So people put alarms in their houses...

    Posted 11 years ago #
  23. Two Tired
    Member

    Irrelevant of your stance on helmets the following is pretty interesting I think. Apparently they are currently designing a similar thing for cycle helmets:

    http://www.phillipshelmets.com/ABOUT_PHPS.htm

    Posted 11 years ago #
  24. stiltskin
    Member

    Just tested out me helmet on the Blue (!) at Glentress. I'm glad to report it works perfectly.. Should've worn my knee pads as well :(

    Posted 11 years ago #
  25. neddie
    Member

    @Baldcyclist. I think you misunderstood me :)

    The issue is where the polystyrene contacts the head. Because of the vents, there are 'peaks' of polystyrene formed on the inside of the helmet. It is these peaks that increase the contact stress.

    A drawing would probably help, but I don't have time to do one just now ;)

    Posted 11 years ago #
  26. rust
    Member

    I may have changed my position on this.

    I may also need a new helmet.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  27. Roibeard
    Member

    @rust - nothing too serious I hope?

    Robert

    Posted 11 years ago #
  28. rust
    Member

    Nothing a few whiskies hasn't made tolerable.

    I was riding up north bridge on my mtb, shifted into top gear (running 1x10), and I think the chain jumped off the end of the cassette. I was stomping on the power, so threw myself over the front of the bike.

    Luckily nothing behind me, though it is amazing how many people will stand at a bus stop and ignore you while you sit in the road.

    My left elbow has a decent scrape as do my knees and my left shoulder to a lesser degree. Helmet has a scrape and signs of compression. I don't think it prevented any serious injury, but I can't imagine it having not done something to prevent scraping to my head.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  29. allebong
    Member

    While looking at this thread http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10580 I found myself browsing the highway code for cyclists - something which I have to say I've never seen in full before. So, what's the first thing you see? Well, take a look:

    https://www.gov.uk/rules-for-cyclists-59-to-82

    Even as a general user of helmets and occasionally hiviz this just strikes me as patronising at best. Doing downhill mountain biking? Good idea to wear a helmet. Riding late at night in the rain? reflectives will help you out. Pootling round to the shops on a hybrid? Not remotely the same need to get the lid and luminous stripes on. I especially like this:


    ...clothing which helps other road users to see you in daylight and poor light

    If other road users have trouble seeing me in daylight it's not going to be fixed by a yellow vest.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  30. Instography
    Member

    @rust
    I had a vaguely similar incident - front wheel slid on some rotted leaf litter and I cracked my noggin off a garden wall. Low speed impact but I don't wear a helmet. My head bled some and I had to have a shower when I got home and put my t-shirt in the wash. Could've been much worse. I could have had to buy a new helmet.

    Posted 11 years ago #

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