CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Meadows 'upgrade'

(107 posts)
  • Started 11 years ago by ruggtomcat
  • Latest reply from Baldcyclist

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  1. Baldcyclist
    Member

    must admit, I didn't see what all the fuss was about, go over them twice a day. Maybe I'll change my mind when it's wet, oh they were today. ;P

    But... it does seem a bit silly to put tactile paving in at the junctions, but NOT put he raised line along the rest of the path. How are those who *need* the tactile paving going to know if they are still on the right side of the path when they are half way along? If I lived in this ward (or even city) I might lobby the council to put in the rest of the required infrastructure in so that those who require it can actually make use of it. Maybe they will, they're not finished yet?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  2. SRD
    Moderator

    Cycling officer just confirmed that they do appear to be the wrong kind and they'll look into getting it rectified.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  3. Arellcat
    Moderator

    I've never really understood why they didn't design tactile paving the other way around (i.e. perpendicular for bikes) because it really doesn't matter which way they are for pedestrians

    It seems that the rumble strip orientation for cyclists was thought to help deter them, and the longitudinal orientation better for smooth cycling.

    It works if the spaces between the rumbles is large.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  4. cc
    Member

    Well done SRD (and everyone involved)

    Posted 11 years ago #

  5. Dave
    Member

    I look forward to the day when we've come far enough that the rumble strip orientation isn't still smoother and more predictable than the roads are...

    Tyres evidently make a big difference. The folder obviously has small wheels (even smaller than Rugtomcat's) but my 700x40c Marathon Winters are also extremely bad on anything tramline-like, as from memory were marathon pluses.

    Ironically the road bike is fine. Head down, skinny tyres on!

    Posted 11 years ago #

  6. kaputnik
    Moderator

    How are those who *need* the tactile paving going to know if they are still on the right side of the path when they are half way along?

    Exactly! They either need to do the job properly, or not at all.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  7. gdm
    Member

    There's actually quite a bit of research (carried out by bods located about five minutes away from these very strips at the College of Art - Inclusive Design for Getting Outdoors) into the fact that people with conditions such as arthritis actually find it very painful walking over these kind of tactile paving and suggesting that we should be looking for alternatives.

    What are the chances the council would be aware of academic research taking place under their very noses?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  8. Dave
    Member

    I doubt the council have much choice, aren't they legally bound to implement whatever the standards are?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  9. gdm
    Member

    I can't imagine any standards would explicitly state the kind of paving to be installed, and it's not as if every corner and kerb has these tactile areas, which suggests it's at the discretion of the council to identify areas to target. Total guess, of course, so may be wrong!

    Either way, I'm sure there will be better ways to mark out sections which aren't going to cause one section of the community physical pain and cause another section the risk of falling from their cycles.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  10. SRD
    Moderator

    @gdm I'm no expert on these things, but the link I posted yesterday seemed pretty clear cut on what was expected to go where. I presume that since this guidance/regs adopted all new developments are expected to meet this standard, but older pavements are not being retrofitted unless work is being done?

    AS @chdot's photos show - you can see the benefit to visually impaired groups to knowing that where ever they go in the UK, the same type of paving has the same meaning?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  11. gdm
    Member

    @SRD That's the benefit of coming late to conversation - missed the weighty tome you linked to!

    Posted 11 years ago #

  12. cc
    Member

    This tactile idiocy is now being inflicted on Middle Meadow Walk too, just by the junction of the paths.
    Expect a big increase in baby buggies on the cycle side of the path, just where bikes swing round the corner from/to other paths.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  13. Arellcat
    Moderator

    This tactile idiocy is now being inflicted on Middle Meadow Walk too, just by the junction of the paths.

    But as we now know, the tactiles on their own are of limited help to the people who need them, especially on shared segregated paths as long as MMW and NMW (and Broomhouse!). CEC really should re-read that guidance and get installing the dividers. Other cities manage to do it.

    Anyone want to put money on the MMW tactiles also being the wrong type?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  14. cc
    Member

    Incidentally I had my first trip along North Meadow Walk for a while this morning and I'm glad to report that the narrow tramline tactile paving doesn't seem to be an issue for my bike with its Big Apple balloon tyres. 60mm tyre width I think? But then I wasn't going round a corner, as you would be if for instance you'd just gone across the Toucan crossing of the west end of Melville Drive and were joining NMW proper.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  15. lionfish
    Member

    Been away for a couple of weeks, so not experienced the new facility.

    Maybe we should be grateful the cycle-budget is being spent on front-wheel-direction-correction paving slabs - by adding grooves in the direction of the path it ensures cyclists won't deviate from that direction or try moving from side to side to balance, in the annoying way they are wont to do. Maybe if the whole length was paved with these we wouldn't need to steer at all!

    Seriously: How easy do people think it would be to lift them and flip them (I assume their underside is flat)? :)

    Posted 11 years ago #

  16. neddie
    Member

    CEC are wasting our precious cycling budget on this tactile nonsense.

    I despair...

    Posted 11 years ago #

  17. chdot
    Admin

    Posted 11 years ago #

  18. ruggtomcat
    Member

    Nice work SRD, and council tarmac man! You can clearly see in chdot's page one photos the flat topped proper style, Ive ridden these and its no problem.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  19. Arellcat
    Moderator

    I made a printed copy of the Tactile Paving guidance, along with the detailed pages from Tobermore and Paving Expert. I'm actually quite tempted to spin down to the Meadows and wave it in front of the builders.

    It's almost as though the contractors (or the contracting entity) don't know any better. The whole point of tactile paving designs is because blind people can tell the difference and here we're giving them all the wrong information.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  20. chdot
    Admin

    CONTROVERSIAL -

    Just been along NMW on fairly skinny tyres.

    The tactiles didn't affect my progress.

    Perhaps they should have.

    One set was at the Chalmers Street/Coronation Walk junction. There used to be dotted lines there showing that bikes were supposed to give way.

    Perhaps the lines will come(?)

    Much more concerning is Melville Drive junction -

    Not expecting this to change any time soon!

    Posted 11 years ago #

  21. SRD
    Moderator

    Skinny tyres seem okay if you're going straight and its dry. Turning from the toucan crossing onto main path is not great. I do that rather than route that concerns you. I'm not convinced they're okay for anything ther than skinnies. The 'proper' tiles look better to me.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  22. ruggtomcat
    Member

    Well it gets better, the east end of the resurfaced path has them as you go round the corner. the path curves, the tracks go straight on...

    Posted 11 years ago #

  23. i
    Member

    I can confirm that the new Glasgow route between Central station to Kelvingrove park via the Bridge to Somewhere has the wrong type of tiles too. Some are on a slope where you have to make a tight turn.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  24. LaidBack
    Member

    Interesting that same standard is used in Glasgow.

    Despite this the path is a big improvement. Noticed more people using already....


    New improved NMW by LaidBackBikes, on Flickr

    Posted 11 years ago #

  25. SRD
    Moderator

    I do think they should have put the right tiles in, but having now cycled it with both my bikes, haven't had any problems. I am still a bit anxious about wet/freezing conditions though.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  26. Baldcyclist
    Member

    Perhaps they are going to install the correct tiles?

    I notice there are some sections that have the 'rounded' tiles on the pedestrian side, but only slits in the path where they have already cut through in preparation on the cycle side.

    Or maybe they just decided to stop, once it was pointed out they had installed the wrong ones? Does anyone have 'contacts' who would know if the project has been 'signed off' yet?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  27. cb
    Member

    So... let's say it's a busy time of day and you need to get from one end of The Meadows to the other.

    Which would be faster? Melville Drive or the new path?

    The new path would presumably require a lower top speed, but I reckon you skip five traffic light/crossings.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  28. stiltskin
    Member

    Just been along it for the first time. Went over the first set of tiles & thought was that it? I'm running 23mm and hardly noticed. I appreciate that people are fed up with substandard infrastructure, but seriously , this just seems like whinging for the sake of it.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  29. kaputnik
    Moderator

    @Stiltskin wait until it's wet, or you are oblidged to cross it not perfectly aligned with the ribs (i.e. where you are merging / leaving path or passing obstacle). These ribs physically throw the tyre like hitting a stone. And with winter tyres it can be quite frightening. More than 1 cyclist posting here has been felled by them.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  30. DaveC
    Member

    They should just cover them in anti slip paint, the same as they do with wooden bridges. Hardwearing paint plus builder sharp sand. Easy!

    Posted 11 years ago #

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