CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Meadows 'upgrade'

(107 posts)
  • Started 10 years ago by ruggtomcat
  • Latest reply from Baldcyclist

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  1. wingpig
    Member

    "Which would be faster? Melville Drive or the new path?"

    Going reasonably fast and only getting two red lights I got to Hope Park Terrace from Brougham Place just ahead of the Staple of Wilmington's Head on Friday, though if he'd dismounted to walk round the corner through the lights from Hope Park Crescent he'd have been slightly ahead. Though I could have dismounted and crossed during the pedestrian phase too. I assume he was having to go fairly slowly as the Meadows were quite busy at the time.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  2. Arellcat
    Moderator

    I appreciate that people are fed up with substandard infrastructure, but seriously, this just seems like whinging for the sake of it.

    Additionally to what Kaputnik said, the fact is that time and again the wrong slabs have been installed. There is a safety element for cyclists, yes, but different tactile shapes are designed specifically to give blind people critical information.

    These ribs physically throw the tyre like hitting a stone. And with winter tyres it can be quite frightening.

    But in the height of summer when grip is good I've found it's fun skills practice to ride at speed over the precise top of a longitudinal rounded ridge.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  3. allebong
    Member

    I can confirm that the tiles are totally un-noticeable beneath 1.95" tyres at 30 psi.

    The same cannot be said for if you try to go across the perpendicular ridges (ie the ped side) on a longboard though....

    Posted 10 years ago #

  4. crowriver
    Member

    Went along the full length of the path this evening on the tandem with son as stoker. Shod with big balloon tyres so not really a problem on the tactile paving, except at the eastern end where you start to move to the pavement next to the road. Here there is a big rectangular patch of tactile paving, and as I had to start turning right across them, I felt a tiny squirrely feeling under the front tyre. Not a big issue, but in the wet? Could be tricky even with fat tyres.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  5. ruggtomcat
    Member

    I think it will be some time before they start getting slippery.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  6. ultrazool
    Member

    One problem is the lack of markings, tactile or otherwise, to make clear to pedestrians what side the bike path is meant to be.

    There are painted bike signs only at the junctions, and not at all of the junctions. As a buggy pusher I tried to respect bike path space. Hard to do with no markings. A wider white strip like in MMW would help a little.

    The tactile paving has been left in that almost-completed, questions-will-be-asked state since at least 2 weekends ago.

    This is the flagship project. The easy infrastructural part of our new bike path network. And it looks like a bodge job, economising on materials, poor supervision of contractors, planned from a distance without thinking about use of space. This is, apparently, the best the council can do. I would be griping hard about that if I'd been here lobbying for this budget for years.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  7. Colonies_Chris
    Member

    I found the tactile paving no real problem to cycle over (on a hybrid, on a dry day), but I noticed several of them seem not have been bedded in properly - I could hear a clunk as it shifted position while I was going over it. That sort of repeated movement will probably end up cracking it.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  8. kaputnik
    Moderator

    I think it will be some time before they start getting slippery.

    Wait for the annual Meadows leafsenesencemonsoon come September, then it will be fun!

    Posted 10 years ago #

  9. SRD
    Moderator

    @ultrazool my recollection is that there were to be more 'bike' signs in the original plans but that they were reduced after feedback (from spokes?). I agree that better signage would help.

    today there was a mobility scooter vooming along. at least it was wide enough to pass.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  10. crowriver
    Member

    Aye, the lack of bike signs is a bit frustrating. Several times whilst traversing the meadows came across groups of pedestrians walking 3 or 4 abreast, right in the cycle lane. They seemed very surprised to see a bike behind them, possibly because they are visitors, or because not many bikes around just now. Come the start of university term, that will certainly change!

    Good to have a nice clear bell.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  11. neddie
    Member

    The easy answer to all this is to ask...

    "What would the Dutch do?"

    Let's have a look at how the Dutch inform partially sighted people what is cycle path and what is not, then copy that!

    Job done!

    Posted 10 years ago #

  12. Calum
    Member

    @edd1e_h: That's the problem with Britain though - "we know best"!

    Posted 10 years ago #

  13. chdot
    Admin

    "I noticed several of them seem not have been bedded in properly - I could hear a clunk as it"

    The ones by the tennis court are loose/unfixed.

    Contractor probably told they are wrong and will have to be replaced, so are just temporary(?)

    Posted 10 years ago #

  14. Nelly
    Member

    "The easy answer to all this is to ask...What would the Dutch do?"

    dutch paper on tactile paving

    Not sure its that "easy" an answer for any nationality.

    I cycle on the ped side - that's the easy answer whatever the country.....

    Posted 10 years ago #

  15. i
    Member

    Said paper does not explicitly say anything about cycle paths, thanks for the link though.

    In the context of guidance paths, "tactile paving can never be used on a lane that is for other traffic than pedestrians" (pg 5)

    Posted 10 years ago #

  16. paul.mag
    Member

    Back to normal commute today which involves using upgraded path to get to gym for the first time and experienced the back wheel kicking out when I went across the tactile paviers. After I'd got myself stable again I wondered if the council would be liable for any damage done to my bike and myself if I ever get dumped from the bike due to their work.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  17. Coxy
    Member

    Rode it for the first time this morning.

    The surface was damp and a little slippery and I did notice both wheels sliding sideways over the tactile pavers. Basically, they were 'channelled' into the grooves as I went over. A little disturbing but not too bad in this case.

    Worse, I think, is the position of the drain cover in the gutter of Meilville Drive at the west end of NMW and you are forced to jink right to the dropped curb.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  18. NiallA
    Member

    I rode along here on the way into work this morning and had the same experience - a bit of slippage due to the damp road surface. Have ridden it a few times now in the dry and had no problems, but one hint of rain...

    Otherwise, it's a lovely path to cycle along - a great improvement on the rather narrow, rough version there before.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  19. fimm
    Member

    I've ridden it a couple of times recently and have noticed that there are places where they've marked out the tarmac to put in the tiles but have then stopped and not put the tiles in on the cycle half of the path...

    On Wednesday evening I had to take evasive action onto the pedestrian half of the path as there was a horde of runners (well 30 or so) coming towards me on the cycle half. Some kind of organised event, they had numbers on.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  20. allebong
    Member

    I was on NMW last night from having come down MMW. Unless I'm suffering from delusion and/or hallucinations it seems most of the tiles have been removed. There were a few single rows here and there near junctions with other paths and entrances, but aside from that it was back to being uniform buttery smooth.

    Can someone confirm that I did not just imagine that?

    Posted 10 years ago #

  21. Tulyar
    Member

    Some suppliers swear black is white that the units they supply are the correct sort, but they certainly are not when you check the catalogue, and installed units, but of course the compliance check by someone ordering the units comes back OK and they order them. Glasgow has used some moulded ones which have a greasy/waxy feel to the touch and glue to the road surface, from which several have peeled away...

    I believe that the wrong units were widely used in Devon, and following from a fall on the wrong units they ended up with a major replacement programme to rectify the problem

    There is a Traffic Advisory Leaflet TAL 4/90 available to download.

    Units of various types were tested by TRL for DETR around 25 years ago (I recall discussing the testing with Fred Offen then section head of CLT3). Try as I have to locate the papers relating to this both TRL and DfT have not delivered - the work at TRL was done under Gordon Harland. Any budding detectives care to try?

    Posted 10 years ago #

  22. Colonies_Chris
    Member

    A couple of days ago I rode the path from Carrick Knowe out to Edinburgh Park. Every one of the tactile paving segments there has the longitudinal grooves on the cycle side. They felt risky even on a hybrid on a dry day - the grooves are wider and shallower than the ones on the Meadows path. After the first few I started crossing over to the ped side. Are these really the right way round? And why are they different from the NMW ones? And what about the final section into Edinburgh Park on a brick-tiled pavement? These have been laid lengthwise too, which makes for an anxious ride.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  23. gembo
    Member

    Colonies chris, this has been the subject of much discussion on here. I do what you did and take the speed bump on the ped side. When various forumers have queried whether they re laid the correct way, the contractors have said either,m No, they are he wrong way or err, I dunno

    They do make you slow down

    They will cause some people to fall off, some of whom may try to make a claim for injury?

    Posted 10 years ago #

  24. SRD
    Moderator

    @allebong from melville drive to chalmers street, the tactile paving is all in place. there is none from chalmers st to MMW, where you can see they started to put it in, and then stopped.

    @colonieschris @gembo the direction is not in doubt, but many of these cases have used the wrong paving (albeit correctly aligned). (i'm no expert, but I' m fairly sure that is the collective wisdom as it now stands).

    Posted 10 years ago #

  25. Arellcat
    Moderator

    There is a Traffic Advisory Leaflet TAL 4/90 available to download.

    That looks really good quite good. It doesn't suggest the use of hazard flags for the pedestrian side though, and both sides look like they use the cyclist-friendlier flags.

    http://www.ukroads.org/webfiles/TAL%204-90%20Tactile%20Markings%20for%20Segregated%20Shared%20Use.pdf

    I think I'll investigate NMW on my way home today, just for the heckuvit.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  26. kaputnik
    Moderator

    @colonieschris on the Broomhouse path there's a real mix. They've used the "cyclist" type flags (wide, shallow, flat-profile ridges) on the pedestrian side and also used the "pedestrian"-type flags (narrow, raised, round-profile ridges) on the cycling side.

    They've managed to get it right at about 2 locations and wrong in all the others.

    On NMW at the Boroughloch end they never installed a lot of the flags on the cycling side as it finally sunk in to the council that they were using the wrong ones after much feedback about the Lauriston-end of the path. You can still see the white marks on the tarmac where the flags should have been installed, but until they get the correct ones they will be absent. John Lauder from Sustrans tweeted recently that it should be done by end-October I think.

    Council won't touch Broomhouse path until the Trams (also Council!) have finished and they adopt it. Until then we have to put up with wrong and potentially dangerous surface.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  27. Colonies_Chris
    Member

    The TRRL document is very interesting. It really does recommend placing the lengthwise grooves (ironically, they refer to them as tramlines) on the cycle side. I can't think why - perhaps no one at TRRL rides a bike? As for the style of ridges, it probably depends on the bike. On a hybrid, I find the rounded ridges, as on NMW, are not really a problem, whereas the flat wider-spaced ridges on the Broomhouse path channel the wheel alarmingly. For a road bike, the opposite might well be true.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  28. Snowy
    Member

    Nearly came off the road bike tonight coming east along the Broomhouse Path. It's flat ridges until a set on Broomhouse Drive suddenly become rounded ridges. In the drizzle this evening, the front wheel suddenly tramlined a good 15 degrees on the rounded ridges and very nearly tipped me off. Very dangerous.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  29. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Fraser Kirkpatrick (@fkp123)
    22/10/2013 08:39
    @SpokesLothian @CyclingEdin anyone know what these are? Love new meadows path, but these are lethal in wet leaves.. http://pic.twitter.com/8zM8OcuuxB

    https://twitter.com/fkp123/status/392555729560686592

    Posted 10 years ago #

  30. jdanielp
    Member

    I can't say that I've had any problems yet on my hybrid MTB; if anything the smooth surface of the majority of NMW feels less grippy than the 'yellow' shared sections and even the 'rumblestrips', especially now that the leaves are coming down properly. I did almost fall foul of tramlining as a result of the raised dividing line between the cycle side and pedestrian side on the old path, but have yet to feel anything like that from the new surfacing. I will be extra cautious now that I hear that others are having issues with the surfacing though.

    Posted 10 years ago #

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