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Why does cycling have podium girls?
(106 posts)- Started 12 years ago by Two Tired
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Posted 12 years ago #
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Ridiculous. I'm willing to bet there aren't hot podium guys for female.cycling events. Sexist and outdated and doesn't belong in sports in 2013.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I'm sure I've seen something that there are podium men for some female races, but not sure, Google isn't being my friend. It's not just a cycling issue - the likes of Formula 1 and MotoGP still have dollybirds holding up the numbers on the grid before the race.
Difficult one (and a debate in which commenting on it as a bloke is fraught with the potential for misogynistic accusations). It's interesting to read that they're now mostly models looking to improve their careers with a bit of exposure, and certainly the comments from one of the girls about how much fun it is (since they're not just traipsing round to stand on the podium, but doing PR and so on as well) suggests no-one is being forced into it or exploited (and the girl commenting was studying for a Biology Phd so she's not brainless).
Is it a throwback? Most certainly. Is it sexist? I genuinely think that's more difficul to answer. Does it degrade women, does it set back the cause of women in society? Is it really that important when it comes to equality of the sexes? (and if it turns out there are hot podium men does that legitimise the podium girls, or does it mean that both should go?).
There are many who would dismiss any of my thoughts as 'well he's a man, so what does he know, he probably fancies them all', but to be honest the podium girls don't even really register with me. I'll often not bother with the podium bits of the highlights, and if I do it's to see the reactions of the riders.
p.s. I did like the story of George Hincapie passing a note to a podium girl, and her getting fired for accepting it, but the two of them then subsequently getting married. You've got to admit, that's kinda sweet.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I'd always assumed they were part of the prize.
Retires having lit the blue touch paper :-}
Posted 12 years ago # -
Is it because heroes and warriors returning from battle need to be garlanded, kissed and given a toy lion? Maybe because it would be a bit of an anticlimactic celebration if a fat bureaucrat shook their hand? Women kissing heroes (or heroes forcing themselves on women) - it's why V-J Day in Times Square is the seminal image of the end of the war.
Posted 12 years ago # -
The original concept of the local village "may-queen" seems much more wholesome than the current models-for-hire.
But the comparison with motor-racing is perhaps a little far - cycling appears to involve lycra only for the competitors! Motor-racing seems to be much more in the E3 "booth-babe", or WWF card-girl (or whatever they're termed) vein.
Of course, the fact that they are not as sexualised as in other areas, might not be much of a mitigating factor...
Yep - a quick role reversal (like the Hawkeye Initiative - possibly NSFW) suggests it's sexist...
@WC - maybe one to mock-up for the magazine?
Robert
(despite being "complementarian")Posted 12 years ago # -
no-one is being forced into it or exploited (and the girl commenting was studying for a Biology Phd so she's not brainless)
I don't think anyone is suggesting force, exploitation, brainlessness? The issue isn't the working conditions of these
podium girlswomen but the effect it has on how we (individuals and society) view other women, I think.Posted 12 years ago # -
Why does cycling have podium girls ? Because they provide an attractive and eye catching way of displaying the sponsor's brand, because they enjoy the job, because the riders enjoy their attention, because the fans like to see them.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"The issue isn't the working conditions of these podium girls women but the effect it has on how we (individuals and society) view other women, I think."
Which I think I also covered in my opus?
"Is it a throwback? Most certainly. Is it sexist? I genuinely think that's more difficul to answer. Does it degrade women, does it set back the cause of women in society? Is it really that important when it comes to equality of the sexes? (and if it turns out there are hot podium men does that legitimise the podium girls, or does it mean that both should go?)."
The questions all being somewhat rhetorical.
And no, no-one was suggesting that, but my point was more that we do have a habit of saying 'oh this and that is terrible' without thinking about the actual people involved for whom it may be a career break, or fun, or a way of financing studies (in a much nicer way than financing them by pole dancing) which, for that person involved, are probably more important than any vague (and debatable) societal impact of them standing there in a nice dress with their legs out.
The two go hand in hand as far as I understand looking at it from the outside.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Why does cycling have podium girls ? Because they provide an attractive and eye catching way of displaying the sponsor's brand, because they enjoy the job, because the riders enjoy their attention, because the fans like to see them.
All bar one if these reasons apply to men - male spectators, male riders, male fans.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Two questions (for general genuine debate):
Does having podium girls mean that the men who are watching them will objectify women, treating them worse, and lead to a general degredation in the rights and treatment of women in the world?
Would the disposal of podium girls mean the opposite, that the cause of women would be gernally improved?
Posted 12 years ago # -
lead to a general degredation in the rights and treatment of women
Not necessarily a degradation, but it does perpetuate the status quo for another generation.
Why can't we perve over scantily clad men draping themselves over the sorts of cars women buy? And it does seem to be cars; we may be human but we're still animals, and fundamentally it should be the men posing for the women. Yet in the human world it has become the role of women to pose and to be alluring.
Posted 12 years ago # -
What two tired said. This fan does not like seeing podium girls, and regardless of their degrees in biology or whatever, I'll believe they're chosen for their brains and personality when I see a short plain looking one in glasses.
If they want camera/eye candy get a kid to hand the trophy over.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Well, except, if you watch any ad breaks there are scantily clad and sexy men - Diet Coke probably broke the mould. Then watch something like Sex and the City and the male characters are basically eye candy ornamentation to the story.
Granted there's not as much of it still as there is of women draped over things, but I wonder if there's a psychological side to that as well. Stereotypes maybe, but all have some truth in them to become so, and blokes are basically simple beings who are much more influenced by the aesthetic than women (obviously there are grand exceptions - the women going along to a Chippendales show aren't really that bothered about anything other than the flesh on show).
Not saying that makes any objectification right in the slightest, but I think it's a little over-simplistic (and not necessarily true) to say that it's only women who are objectified, and it's only men get their kicks from it. And I still don't think the presence of podium girls perpetuates inequality to the extent that those from the next generation watching will continue to pay women less or not promote women and so on (at least I'd hope not, but clearly I could be wrong about that).
Posted 12 years ago # -
"I'll believe they're chosen for their brains and personality when I see a short plain looking one in glasses"
Never suggested they were actually chosen for their brains, of course they're chosen for their looks.
Okay, another question. If someone's 'talent' is basically how good they look why should they not be allowed to use that talent in exactly the same wya that an excellent writer or artist or businessperson is allowed to use their talents?
We can look at and like buildings for their aesthetic appeal, we can choose pets because we think they're cute, but a man appreciating how good a woman looks is sexist and misogynistic? (noting that a woman appreciating how good a man looks is probably okay, which is likely a historical thing in that woman have not for hundreds of years subjected men to second class citizenship, and equally I have no problem with women objectifying men, but again that's likely because I've bnever suffered any discrimination due to my sex (except once, and for my race and 'class', when it was suggested I wouldn't be right to host a telly programme on cycling because I was white, male and middle-class).
Posted 12 years ago # -
I'll believe it's a simple appreciation of bodily beauty when I see a line of identical pretty young men in speedos applauding the winners of a Formula 1 Grand Prix on their way to the ritual champagne bath.
Posted 12 years ago # -
My argument, as applies to podium girls in sport, is that as there is such a vaste divide in the amount of TV coverage of male and female competitions and there are podium girls prancing around in various states of undress this puts the message across that sport is for men. Both as a competitor AND a spectator.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"... puts the message across that sport is for men. Both as a competitor AND a spectator"
Most women (perhaps not on this forum) I think would tend to agree with that statement.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Two Tired, presumably then that would mean if more women's sport was on the telly, and there were podium blokes, that this message wouldn't be sent, and so the issue isn't actually with the podium girls but rather the television coverage?
"I'll believe it's a simple appreciation of bodily beauty when I see a line of identical pretty young men in speedos applauding the winners of a Formula 1 Grand Prix on their way to the ritual champagne bath"
Interesting. So because they're women it's a sexist message and nothing to do with simple appreciation of the aesthetic, but if they were men it would just be appreciating the aesthetic with no other message?
Posted 12 years ago # -
Interesting. So because they're women it's a sexist message and nothing to do with simple appreciation of the aesthetic, but if they were men it would just be appreciating the aesthetic with no other message?
No, if it was both it would be. But it is not. It is only women.
Two Tired, presumably then that would mean if more women's sport was on the telly, and there were podium blokes, that this message wouldn't be sent, and so the issue isn't actually with the podium girls but rather the television coverage?
The issue is that women only go together with sport as a pretty and decorative item. They don't get valued as competitors. I forget what the coverage of women's sport is in newspapers or on telly but it is somewhere in the low single figures %.
We can look at and like buildings for their aesthetic appeal, we can choose pets because we think they're cute, but a man appreciating how good a woman looks is sexist and misogynistic?
Newsflash - women are not pets or objects. This is the point being made.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Min, on the first two you've kind of agreed with my points. If it was the same then there would be no issue, so the problem isn't that there are podium girls, but rather that there isn't as much coverage of women's sport, or as many hot men on the television.
On the last one, fair point, poor comparison by me - and this is the problem with this debate, especially when presenting it as a man. It's easy to come across as a bit of a chauvinist sexist pig. Very easy. And no matter how much I say I want equality and can't understand why anyone would want to treat a woman worse than a man, because of things I've written here, simply questioning whether podium girls really do mean that the current inequal position will be maintained, I won't be believed.
But the point I was making is simply that it seems women can't be appreciated by me, for their looks, without that being sexist - not comparing women to pets or buildings.
I'm probably better off out of this discussion, I've a bad habit of getting embroiled in emotive arguments like this. My simple stance is: women and men are equal; I don't see that podium girls affect that; there should be more and better coverage of women's sport given that actually seems to be a bigger contributor to inequality; I unashamadely like seeing a pretty woman and don't think that makes me inherently sexist.
Posted 12 years ago # -
What Min said!
Posted 12 years ago # -
@Insto
...an anticlimactic celebration if a fat bureaucrat shook their hand...
You just put an image of Keith Broon on the podium in my head...
Nooooooooooooooo
Posted 12 years ago # -
WC, the issue isn't your appreciating a woman's looks coming across as sexist it is what in the hell has that got to do with winning a race?
Posted 12 years ago # -
"...or as many hot men on the television."
Dr Shepherd? My wife thinks so.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"... what in the hell has that got to do with winning a race?"
Which isn't a point you'd raised till now: "My argument, as applies to podium girls in sport, is that as there is such a vaste divide in the amount of TV coverage of male and female competitions and there are podium girls prancing around in various states of undress this puts the message across that sport is for men"
Suggests, quite strongly, that if there were equal tv coverage, and men prancing around in various states of undress then it would be fine. And that would have just as little to do with winning a race.
But if the problem is that it has nothing to do with winning a race I couldn't agree more, and yes, they should just have the podium with the jerseys handed out by the head of the Tour or Mayor of the town or whover. They should probably stop wasting Champagne as well.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Perhaps my light hearted retort above hints at a reason, it's all about demographics...
All of the 'hot men', are on display in the types of television that women like to watch.
All of the 'hot women' are on display in the types of television that men like to watch.Whatever your sex/preference, the hot 'object' is available if you go look for it.
Posted 12 years ago # -
That's an interesting idea, do we lose the dolly birds from sport and in exchange ban the rubbish telly my wife seems to watch?
Posted 12 years ago # -
I'm hesitant to become embroiled in this debate, mainly because I'm male and whatever I say will doubtless be dismissed with "well, he would say that, wouldn't he?"
Misgivings aside, the whole podium ritual is quite fascinating in a way. It's all incredibly pagan. A virility/fertility symbol. The revelation that the young women were originally May queens or equivalent ritual figures from the villages along the route of the Tour reinforces this impression. In that sense it really is a throwback, not just to the early C20th but way back to at least the Romans!
That history makes it more interesting than the equivalent rituals in, say, motor car racing or motorbike racing*, where the ritual is performed in a fixed arena rather than a peripatetic one passing through sometimes small communities, lived environments.
There was a discussion yesterday on ITV4 (Chris Boardman again, the thinking man's cycling pundit) about the importance of tradition to the Tour riders and teams. This was in relation to aerodynamic helmets and their relative absence from the Tour despite being legal for years. The podium ritual seems to fit there too - it's a tradition, albeit one which has been thoroughly infiltrated by the interests of commercial sponsors.
Like Roibeard I think it would be more in keeping with tradition if it was still the local women who fêted the triumphant cyclists. But then it would also be more in keeping if there had been no doping scandals, no team cars following with new bikes, no one piece skinsuits, etc. The traditions have morphed into slightly fake simulacra of the originals, that's just the age we live in.
* - I briefly happened across ITV4's coverage of darts last night while channel hopping** and saw two blonde women (presumably models) wearing low cut black dresses and Miss World style satin sashes, standing either side of the dart board while the reigning darts champion threw his hand in. Yes, actually while the darts were being thrown. That was an utterly bizarre spectacle! Presumably the sponsor's idea? (Some online casino I think).
** - for the avoidance of doubt, I don't watch darts on TV as a general rule. There was a bit of a craze for it in the 1980s if I recall and I did watch it then (I was a teenager). That was when the commentator yelled "ONE HUNDRED AND EEEIGHTYYYY!" and the players all fed their bellies with pints of bitter held in the non-dart throwing hand. I don't remember any models standing about back then, so not very traditional methinks.
P.S.:- I saw something similar to this. It's just bloody weird, is all I can say!
Posted 12 years ago #
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