I'd have thought all the details - including the research materials, recordings, transcripts, reports, presentations etc - should be accessible through FOI.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Cycling News
'Mutual respect'/NICEWAYCODE
(705 posts)-
Posted 11 years ago #
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@chdot
My comments on the research weren't intended as a critique of the methodology. All I was trying to say was that even if the research were as good as you could expect this type of research to be - I think the approach I describe is entirely appropriate for developing a campaign so I give them the benefit of the doubt that it was all done properly - their expectations of what it can do to impact on road safety are wildly unrealistic.Posted 11 years ago # -
Misleading statements from NWC, although they are clearly being written by Transport Scotland officials, regarding the budget. Yes, funding for NWC comes from the revenue element of the "Support for sustainable and active travel" budget line, which probably means that it couldn't be used for infrastructure. That doesn't mean it couldn't be used for something more useful - e.g. expanding bikeability training or free SPOKES maps for all.
The £58m - finally an acknowledgement that this expenditure is over three years. No mention of the fact that this is a rampant over-estimate of the amount being spent on cycling. A key element of this £58m is the £20m "Cycling, Walking and Safer Streets" budget. As I mentioned in a previous post, an average of 36% of this budget was spent on cycling by local authorities in 2010. Even being generous and assuming this is now 50% of the total budget (unlikely) - we are talking about £48m for cycling over three years and not £58m. This means that the Scottish Government is claiming the cycling budget to be around 20% higher than it is in reality.
Happy to be corrected on this, if anyone thinks I am wrong.
Posted 11 years ago # -
A few observations:
Last night I was walking home through Holyrood Park (south). A couple of boy racers in a yellow Honda Civic (the irony of the name), one with a trendy black bonnet, and lowered suspension, had opened the sunroof and were blasing an air horn as they passed anyone walking or cycling. I mean, the peace and quiet of the park is already blasted away, but that was taking the mick. Now, do the people at Nice Way Code think those boy racers would change their ways if they visited the NWC website?
Later a middle aged guy in a top-down white BMW came to the top of the 'chicane' heading west from Duddingston Village, and absolutely floored it, filling the air with the rumble of an exhaust note which on a track would be impressive, but in a town park is utterly obtrusive. Would he act differently if he read the NWC?
The biggest thing, though, is walking in amongst the noise, and the fumes, of all the queues of motorised traffic. no matter how nice any of the people in those cars are (and I'd imagine the majority probably are quite nice people), niceness doesn't make a city clogged with cars any more pleasant to be in. A nice driver doesn't emit less noise and fewer emissions. A 'nice' traffic jam doesn't make a street a destination that you want to sit out in and enjoy a summer evening.
Posted 11 years ago # -
One of their responses that I'm most sick of reading is that this campaign is a response to call in the revised CAPS for a mutual respect campaign. It's not like CAPS was the result of any meaningful research or consultation where the need for a campaign of mutual respect reflects a groundswell of experienced or informed opinion. I mean, CAPS was written by Cycling Scotland for SG and then they respond to themselves by actioning their own "call".
So they start planning their campaign with some research that somehow, magically and I'm sure spontaneously, finds that the only thing that will work is a campaign of mutual respect.
And so we go round and round in circles. We're through the looking glass.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"
Si, Manchester (@TransAlpUK)
02/08/2013 08:48
I'm told there's lots of confusion over what is nice and what is not nice, so I made a handy chart. @NicewayCodeGBhttp://www.pic.twitter.com/BQhADZsTCO
"
Posted 11 years ago # -
WC "A nice driver doesn't emit less noise and fewer emissions." I think they do - but the problem is how to get the Honda and BMW drivers you mention to become 'nice drivers', or how to get their toys taken off them if won't behave nicely.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"or how to get their toys taken off them if won't behave nicely"
Ask those nice people @PoliceScotland they are backing (but not enforcing?) the nice new nice campaign.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"WC "A nice driver doesn't emit less noise and fewer emissions." I think they do - but the problem is how to get the Honda and BMW drivers you mention to become 'nice drivers', or how to get their toys taken off them if won't behave nicely."
Sorry, should have been clear, because yes, if somneone is driving more considerately. But what I was thinking of was in big queues of traffic, either static or moving slowly in a big procession, 'nice' will do nothing to change the noise or emissions of that jam.
Posted 11 years ago # -
So just catching up on all this. Noticed this article posted and talked about by the nicewaycode and by the bbc.
Stats like this:
Analysis of accident data suggested factors involved in crashes can be attributed "fairly equally" to drivers and cyclistsChild cyclists were much more likely to have contributed to accidents, while incidents involving cyclists aged 25 and over were more often put down to the driver
Some 2,801 cyclists were said to have contributed to serious collisions between 2005 and 2007, 43% by failing to look properly and one-fifth by riding out from the pavement
Over the same period, 2,587 drivers were said to have contributed to serious crashes, with 56% failing to look properly and 17% through a poor manoeuvre
- Now these came from some report but WTF there is no way you can compare in this way surely. This must be misleading. have we already discussed this?
Posted 11 years ago # -
I remember our late Lothian & Borders Police going on record saying they wouldn't or couldn't be bothered to police the 20mph zones.
I wonder if Police Scotland will be "nice" and enforce these laws as it is their duty to do.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Analysis of accident data suggested factors involved in crashes can be attributed "fairly equally" to drivers and cyclists
Um, that kind of flies in the face and completely contradicts what's in the Streetsahead Edinburgh data set. Anyone else have any other links which disprove the above position as a load of cobblers?
Posted 11 years ago # -
TFL figures;
"figures show that in accidents were a cyclist was killed or badly hurt the cyclist was presumed to have committed an offence in just 6% of cases. The vehicle driver was assumed to have done so 56% of the time while 39% of the time it wasn't clear."
Posted 11 years ago # -
The stats mentioned by the BBC appear to come from TRL Report PPR 445. Here's a summary.
The TRL report is based on GB, the TFL report would be London.Posted 11 years ago # -
I think there's more than one set of similar statistics.
The English or London set (can't remember where they're from) are the ones that have a roughly 50:50 split of responsibility if you include child cyclists, but if you exclude children the responsibility for accidents involving adults on bicycles is heavily (I can't remember, something like 80:20) upon the car driver. Children are less competent road users, who knew?
The Edinburgh ones split 80:20 against car drivers even when you includ child cyclists.
Posted 11 years ago # -
BLOCKED BY TWITTER?
I'm told there's lots of confusion over what is nice and what is not nice, so I made a handy chart. @NicewayCodeGBhttp://www.pic.twitter.com/BQhADZsTCO
Is the NiceWay code to be targeted on the A9 then.
Would imagine that would be seen as controversial?dangerous roads - solution is to re-build to make faster and safer
dangerous cycle routes - solution is an advertising campaignPosted 11 years ago # -
Hang on! We don't need the Nice Way Code! Look, there's this thing in place already called the 'Highway Code', and there's a neat rule at no.144 which says, "You MUST NOT.... drive without reasonable consideration for other road users."
Sums up the whole of Nice Way Code doesn't it? So all we need to do is get anyone using the road to read this 'Highway Code', and we don't need to spend all the money on the Nice Way Code. Can't believe those in charge of this hadn't spotted that - I'll bet they feel silly now.
Posted 11 years ago # -
@Wilmington's Cow - careful now, careless talk and all that.
If the ad agency get a snifter of that they'll realise they can create ad campaigns for EVERY rule in the Highway Code.
That's a lot of £500K's for Keith Brown to invest in and, if we know Mr Broon, there's every chance he might just do that!
And can you imagine the response of the Government if you had proposed spending half a million on actually enforcing No.144? But spend that amount on an advertising campaign which doesn't actually have the effectiveness of said ruling and... well, voila Nice Way Code...
Posted 11 years ago # -
BLOCKED BY TWITTER?
Nope, just an extraneous "www" in there.
Posted 11 years ago # -
can you imagine the response of the Government if you had proposed spending half a million on actually enforcing No.144?
No ministerial photo opps nor PR 'feelgood factor' from enforcement blitzes. Besides, different department: Chief of Police or Kenny Macaskill would get any credit.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Apparently (RAC Foundation/Guide Dogs for Blind from YouGov survey) 54% of drivers self reported that they illegally used the footway, in contravention of s.72 HA 1835 and a fixed penalty offence, for which cyclists are ruthlessly pursued.
I wonder what the 'confessions' level might be for cyclists?
Posted 11 years ago # -
I've put that breakdown of spending on the POP site http://pedalonparliament.org/that-58-million-in-full/ for future reference
Posted 11 years ago # -
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NicewayCode Gone Bad (@NicewayCodeGB)
03/08/2013 09:50
Usual best practice is Don't Read The Comments. But we'd urge you to make an exception here:http://beyondthekerb.wordpress.com/2013/07/31/the-car-and-the-kitten
#nicewaycode
"
Posted 11 years ago # -
There was a recentish information campaign (I think it was from one of the police forces) about what motorists could do to help cyclists, and what cyclists could do to help motorists. While I'm still not convinced about the whole idea of general education campaigns it was at least pretty much spot on in its advice. I know it got posted here at the time - can anyone remember it? long shot I know
Posted 11 years ago # -
ah yes, that's the one.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Posted 11 years ago #
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So the moto-suits have commissioned an expensive road safety media campaign aimed at all road users, but they/we are paying for it exclusively out of the sustainable transport budget.
Do i have my facts right? If so, that's just taking the proverbial.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"Do i have my facts right?"
That appears to be more or less the case.
It's not clear where the original idea came from.
'It's in CAPS' doesn't explain the 'high level thinking'.
However some of the people in the Government and Cycling Scotland and the Newhaven Agency ride bikes. They genuinely believe there needs to be a balance of niceness amongst road users.
This seems to be what is 'upsetting' various cycle campaigners. There seems to be an official view that the 'balance' between cyclists and drivers is (should be??) 50/50.
It seems as though there is a belief that 'sorting' the tolerance of existing road users will encourage frightened non-cyclists to want to use the roads. Then (perhaps) there will be more spending on infrastructure - though I presume there are those looking forward to saying 'now that the roads are rosy we don't need to spend more money'.
Of the three Es education (this), engineering (some people think spending should be £20 a head) and enforcement, the last seems to be the most absent - or at least any plans are still unknown.
The police had a week of action and caught quite a few motorists but, so far, that's it.
Posted 11 years ago # -
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Nice Way Code (@nicewaycode)
03/08/2013 22:18
@cocteautriplets @farnie @CCSteV @AAPresident @NicewayCodeGB sorry to hear that Andy, maybe this is a govt funded conduit that can defy odds"
"andy arthur (@cocteautriplets)
03/08/2013 22:31
@nicewaycode @farnie @CCSteV @AAPresident @NicewayCodeGB Quite. Why do what's proven to work, what data tells us to. Lets make new stuff up"
Posted 11 years ago #
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