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Shared Use - the debate (begins) continues

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  1. neddie
    Member

    Pedestrians may be wary of drivers, but cyclists can pose them a bigger menace

    Right, except drivers killed 400 pedestrians last year, whereas cyclists killed 3 (usually it is 1 or 2).

    jaywalking

    There is no such thing as jaywalking in this country. One may walk across the road anywhere, or even along it (except motorways, or where specifically banned). Jaywalking is a derogatory term invented by the US motor industry.

    embolden the timid

    You mean make ordinary human beings feel safe? Or do you mean "embolden" as in dare to use the rightful carriageway for motor vehicles.

    A clickbait article very light on actual facts & evidence

    Posted 6 years ago #

  2. paulmilne
    Member

    I do use my bell, as early as possible when approaching someone from behind, but not too early they might not hear it. The fine line is recognised by practice. I usually thank people when they move over to try to diffuse any sense of entitlement.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  3. Roibeard
    Member

    @neddie - probably a subeditor addition, as it has nothing to do with the rest of the content!

    Clickbait rules...

    Robert

    Posted 6 years ago #

  4. crowriver
    Member

    It's very disappointing, if unsurprising to see this article which panders to popular prejudices (mostly held by motorists) instead of looking at the facts.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  5. rbrtwtmn
    Member

    except drivers killed 400 pedestrians last year, whereas cyclists killed 3 (usually it is 1 or 2).

    A correction on this point... (I think it's important enough to pick up on so I hope you'll forgive me doing so). The statistics show deaths and injuries and collision types, but *not* cause. So this would be significantly more accurate if it read:

    "except 400 pedestrians died last year because they were hit by motor vehicle, whereas only 3 (usually it is 1 or 2) people died after colliding with someone on a bicycle."

    The press is far too keen on converting/twisting the statistics and I think it's important we're really careful with this.

    Search "cyclists caused deaths pedestrians uk" on Google and immediately some deeply misleading articles/headlines are available. Minor injury becomes 'maimed' and 'collision with' becomes 'caused' (unless it's about car use when 'caused' is downgraded to 'in collision with').

    Posted 6 years ago #

  6. Rosie
    Member

    I posted this on Facebook and have had someone saying "It's a human right to have a choice to drive.." I don't think that comes into the UN Charter on Human Rights!

    However that is how many motorists think and they are as righteous as if you were threatening to remove their right to vote, or to send them to prison without a trial.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  7. Rosie
    Member

    PS, I get a good/neutral reaction generally when using a bell.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  8. crowriver
    Member

    "they are as righteous as if you were threatening to remove their right to vote, or to send them to prison without a trial."

    That's the power of marketing. The motor car manufacturers have done a really good job of brainwashing the majority of the population into believing stuff like this. A nice earner for them that 70% plus of people drive regularly...

    Posted 6 years ago #

  9. neddie
    Member

    @rbrtwtmn

    I agree what I wrote (quickly) could have been worded better. However, I deliberately did not use the words "hit by motor vehicle" as that removes driver agency and becomes one for the 'Sentient Beings' thread.

    An extreme view might be that the driver took the decision to use a potentially lethal piece of machinery when they got in the motor vehicle and that it doesn't really matter whether the pedestrian/victim was "at fault" or not.

    In any case, the figures I really wanted (but couldn't remember offhand) were those for pedestrians "killed by" driver or cyclist on the pavement (where surely the pedestrian cannot be at fault in 99.9% of cases).

    For drivers, that's around 80 pedestrians killed on the pavement, and for cyclists I believe it would be zero.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  10. chdot
    Admin

    New widened pavement (Fife)

    Expecting different coloured infill at bus stop

    Posted 3 years ago #

  11. crowriver
    Member

    Is that the road between Aberdour and Burntisland? Or am I wide of the mark?

    Useful if so.

    Posted 3 years ago #

  12. boothym
    Member

    Close - it's the other side of Burntisland on the road to Kinghorn :) Will be useful for getting between the towns, with the caravan park in between as well. The alternative being a 40 mph road or a 1.8m pavement (technically legal as it's a core path).

    It had folk on the local Facebook group moaning that two buses will hit each other with it was being reduced to 6.5m; plus the usual potholes, road tax, etc. on the council's page: https://www.facebook.com/FifeCouncil/posts/4030281556982388

    @chdot The plans don't show anything different for the bus stop, I'm assuming they are just waiting until some more tarmac arrives to fill it in.

    But the plans indicate there will be some red tarmac across the junction in that photo, along with give way lines on the pavement. Quite a wide junction, hopefully it doesn't cause issues...

    Posted 3 years ago #

  13. chdot
    Admin

    “

    “I hate that,” Nepveu said. “[The signs] are not really new but that they are used a lot is new. A lot of cyclists take their cycling seriously, it is a mode of transport, not playing. It is a lot of stress for pedestrians and cyclists when you have to share your place.”

    Nepveu said the union was in talks with the municipality to see if there might be a rethink. “If cyclists cannot drive through the city centre, this has consequences for the attractiveness of cycling because cycle routes around the centre become congested, for example at Centraal station,” he said. “The cycle paths around the centre are mostly along motorways. There is noise and stench from cars, and there are many traffic lights.”

    “

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/21/trouble-cyclists-paradise-amsterdam-accused-favouring-pedestrians

    Posted 3 years ago #

  14. CycleAlex
    Member

    Does anyone know if the shared use route on the A921 above is finished? Tempted to venture into Fife tomorrow but don't fancy cycling on the A921 (especially if narrowed by roadworks...)

    Posted 3 years ago #

  15. boothym
    Member

    It's finished from Kinghorn to this junction: https://goo.gl/maps/tF7ffKQ9PdA1PTGt9 (except at the bus stop in chdot's photo above)

    From there to the west it's traffic lights, but one lane is coned off so you can walk/cycle in it.

    There is a dropped kerb about 100m or so past that junction so you can rejoin. The junction is meant to be a raised table but it's not been added yet.

    Posted 3 years ago #

  16. boothym
    Member

    Just in case anyone is coming through to Fife - the widened pavement between Burntisland and Kinghorn pictured above is now complete. No signs or markings though. Street View captured it under construction in March if you want a look: https://goo.gl/maps/szqVjGAzgChFrUUDA

    At the Burntisland end, you either need to rejoin the main road or turn onto a path that goes through a play park connecting to residential streets. There were complaints from nearby residents about the route, who think there's going to be lots of fast cyclists coming through and mowing down kids and dog walkers...

    https://goo.gl/maps/qdjZQhT7nsy67SPT7 - the path is now a metre wider with a dropped kerb, and only the swings and see-saw remain.

    Posted 3 years ago #

  17. Tulyar
    Member

    @chdot How on earth did that pass a safety audit?

    Major hazards with this design as cyclists can ride through exactly where passengers get off a bus. I've a report of a crash exactly like this in Kingston. A direct broadside as the passenger stepped off the bus right in front of the cyclist who had no deflection to slow them down or move them clear of the bus

    Posted 3 years ago #

  18. chdot
    Admin

    Do they have safety audits in Fife?

    Only 2 buses an hour, good sightlines.

    But…

    Posted 3 years ago #

  19. Baldcyclist
    Member

    I remember suggesting that path be widened in 2012/13.

    Fife council cycling officer told me it would be impossible...

    Posted 3 years ago #

  20. boothym
    Member

    Suppose it might be a problem if you have a gaggle of folk getting on/coming off, but it's about 3.5m wide and you should be aware of the hazard - good sightlines and either the bus will have gone past you, or in the other direction you're already taking care and slowing for the junction anyway.

    Posted 3 years ago #

  21. chdot
    Admin

    “

    he said the pavement was 2.4 metres wide at the relevant point, describing it as a “shared path on the ring road”.

    “

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/02/pedestrian-jailed-manslaughter-cyclist-fall-car-huntingdon

    Posted 1 year ago #

  22. chdot
    Admin

    “

    According to the judge, the pavement was 2.4 metres wide “at the relevant point” and was a shared path. However, the police said it wasn’t clear whether it was or wasn’t a shared path. If the police can't be definitive, what chance of any pedestrian or cyclist making the correct call? I’m also not sure about this 2.4 metres’ business. It doesn’t look to me as if the judge took into account the lamp post or road sign “at the relevant point” that would have reduced the usable space for the ladies for several metres either side of it. The CCTV clearly shows Auriol walking in a straight line with enough space for the cyclist to avoid her, except for the that lamp post / road sign.

    “

    https://marmitediva.blogspot.com/2023/03/a-picture-of-auriol-grey.html?m=1

    Posted 1 year ago #

  23. stiltskin
    Member

    What the reports of the case above seem to ignore is that the pedestrian admitted making ‘light contact’ with the cyclist. i.e. she actually pushed her into the road. That is why she was done for manslaughter.

    Posted 1 year ago #

  24. chdot
    Admin

    “

    Jones said this suggested National Highways did not know what they had built for cycling and walking. “In my view this is a systemic failure of National Highways to apply its own standards, which I know from experience of reviewing schemes is leading to poor provision on the ground.”

    “They design for shared use, which means in reality a pavement you’re allowed to cycle on. It has few of the attributes of a good cycle route.”

    “

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2023/jul/27/national-highways-accused-of-systemic-failure-on-cycling-provision-in-england

    Posted 9 months ago #

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