I see the FB page has had no posts other than 'please share about the march' in more than a week now (since the one about parking charges).
EDIT: Tell a lie, they've posted late today about the EEN article, and a cartoon.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
20mph zones may go Scotland wide after Edinburgh trial
(797 posts)-
Posted 9 years ago #
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Visiting the FB page for this has become like watching a car crash for me. Very bizarre setting so many statements made with no basis other than repeated mantra like falsehoods. Apparently 20mph will:
Add an hour to a journey across town (assuming constant speed it's only 9 minutes more to go from Duddingston to the Gyle which obviously means once lights and junctions and accelerating and braking are factored in the conference will likely be as little as 2 minutes, of any coherence at all);
Kill the economy off the city (despite actual real genuine already happened 20 zones around the world proving that it makes places nicer to be, leading to people spending longer in places and therefore spending more);
Access streets at 20 will destroy a business that relies on deliveries apparently. I'm at a loss as to how.
Higher emissions because you have to drive in this gear (ah yes, this gear, also known as the midst polluting gear in the box - 20 means less time accelerating, which is what kills fuel economy and creates emissions, and, Erm, use a gear that's appropriate and your economy and emissions will be the same. The car companies I contacted all came back with the same sort of response - it depends on how you drive).
It'll lead to more pedestrians taking risks to cross the road and therefore lead to more injuries (there is SO much wrong about this statement it's insane).
It'll lead to MORE congestion - says someone who knows nothing of traffic flow dynamics, probably the same type of person who, on a dual carriageway going down to one lane thinks that going down the fat lane till the last moment aids traffic flow. Hint. It doesn't. It creates aconcrtina of slowing that within ten cars has become a stop, and that stop amplifies as out goes down the queue.
I wish some of them would just be honest and simply state they just want to drive quickly and don't care about anyone else.
Posted 9 years ago # -
why don't you send the EEN an opinion piece?
Posted 9 years ago # -
For the same reason I'm not posting this to that FB page - the people that really need to change their minds won't, pure and simple. They think it's all a green conspiracy or that (bizarrely) the Council wants to destroy the city (they may be misguided often, but seriously, they think the councillors are there because they want to destroy Edinburgh?). And they know that that is the case and are very much of the school of thought of he who shouts loudest is clearly right.
Fortunately they're a minority (albeit vocal) and people who like to actually think, and will research, and check stats and facts and figures, realise this is a good move for the city (and most importantly the people who live and work in it) in its entirety.
I still believe the protest march will be an utter damp squib - as stated above, it's just not the type of thing that people, despite what they say online, will get so worked up about to get out of bed on a cold February morning to march about. Whereas at PoP 1 we expected maybe 400 and got 3000-4000!
Posted 9 years ago # -
"I wish some of them would just be honest and simply state they just want to drive quickly and don't care about anyone else."
Think that sums it up well!
Posted 9 years ago # -
you're totally right that the FB crowd won't listen. but i suspect there is a wider audience that reads the stuff about 'more time' 'more congestion' and believes it. would be good to have someone put the alternative perspective.
Posted 9 years ago # -
@WC: I think the reason for the lack of activity on FB/Twitter is probably that the "organiser" has realised just how much effort goes into organising an effective event (and once again, thanks to the PoP organisers for all their hard work!)
I would speculate that protest events will attract large numbers where either (a) there is an immediate and passionate reaction to something and the event is organised quickly, eg the recent Charlie Hebdo vigils or b) where there is a longer running, well thought out, well articulated, well publicised cause that engages "hearts and minds" (hello PoP!).
The anti-20mph campaign doesn't meet either of these.
Unlike WC I do think that some of the antis can be persuaded. I suspect most of the bile arises because of the ease of venting spleen on FB/Twitter. Like WC, I think the "protest" will have a very low turnout.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Incidentally, could you share some of the responses from the motor manufacturers?
Posted 9 years ago # -
I love the argument that "your car might sit happily at 20 but I have a big car which doesn't".
It's your own fault if you decide to buy an oversized, overpowered saloon then use it for short journeys around the city. Should think about that when you buy a car... If you want something for cruising down the motorway then that is great but for city driving small cars are great!
If you have your big saloon and need to drive into the city occasionally, I'm sure it will not be the end of the world to have to change down a gear. If you do it all the time you should have bought a smaller car, makes parking easier too.
Some of the usual suspects on that page are just outrageous though. And as a grammar Nazi I can not tolerate the abuses of the English language on there...
Posted 9 years ago # -
Like WC, I think the "protest" will have a very low turnout.
Shame I am otherwise engaged that day as it would be fun to go along to point and laugh. :-)
Posted 9 years ago # -
Their latest cartoon about 20mph being a funeral speed is a touch risky - even for them.
Posted 9 years ago # -
From ENews story -
"
“People should come on this march to get the point across that there’s half a million people or so that live in Edinburgh, and only 2500 people were asked if they wanted this.
"
That'll be the number of people responding to the PUBLIC consultation - not quite the same thing!
Posted 9 years ago # -
Nice to see there's consistency to their skewed logic.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Who's going (to watch)?
Uncharitably I was wondering how many people could/would walk from Dynamic Earth to King's Stables - even with a disco truck leading.
Posted 9 years ago # -
I would say don't go and watch - the less people around, the more pathetic it looks. I would be surprised if many people against 20mph limits turn up at 10am on a cold February Saturday morning to walk (yes, walk!) over a mile through the chunder in the Cowgate and Grassmarket - even with the inducement of Chaplins mobile disco.
The comments in the article about the consultation are comedy gold though. Somehow I can't shake the feeling that this is all some elaborate hoax by one of you guys...
Posted 9 years ago # -
Did anyone notice whether or not it actually happened?
Posted 9 years ago # -
^ I'll tell you in 2 weeks time
Posted 9 years ago # -
Yes it did not happen today
If they have secured a road closure for the actual demo on 21/2/15 then they better turn up or they will have to complain about themselves.
Think chaplin's bus might be cancelled? And the guy can walk down the pavement, which would be quicker than driving on the route chosen ( well cycling is for sure)
Posted 9 years ago # -
I had it in my head that it was this saturday. Whoops.
Oh well they seem to be losing momentum faster than a tram in a power cut.
Posted 9 years ago # -
EEN giving some free publicity to Grant McCusker.
"I have done endless research into the campaign and contacted many people involved within relevant sectors"
"speed cameras do not work below 20mph"
"There are other cities who have taken this 20mph approach across their cities and accidents and fatalities have risen"
Posted 9 years ago # -
"speed cameras do not work below 20mph"
But surely they only need to capture those going over 20mph...
Posted 9 years ago # -
"Out of around the half a million population, the council asked 2500 people who seem to have given the response they wanted."
why on earth do they propagate lies?
Posted 9 years ago # -
"Endless research" since starting the campaign three weeks ago!
And given his epic misreading of the report on drivers' use of mobile phones (as pointed out by SRD) I don't think it will be particularly rigourous.
The EEN is desperately trolling for readers now. It surely can't keep trading much longer.
Posted 9 years ago # -
why on earth do they propagate lies?
Because the only way they can build themselves an argument is to fake it all?
Posted 9 years ago # -
I follow the "Lost Edinburgh" group on facebook. They are in the habit of posting after-the-horse-has-bolted pieces on planning developments and saying "once again, [we] were not consulted".
Some people clearly expect to sit at home and for the council to knock on their door to canvas their opinions on every single planning or traffic order change that they may or may not like, and if they don't receive such personal service then "they weren't consulted". If people want to be more active in local political decision making then they are going to have to switch on to it a bit more. It's not that hard, you could visit the library once in a while or even look at the easy to use map on the council planning portal. Or join a local community council or organisation such as Spokes or the Cockburn Society who have diligent members who trawl the planning applications you might be interested on your behalf.
It makes a mockery of the 2,500 people who could be bothered to take the 20 minutes out their day to respond to the consultation that somehow the "silent (i.e. C.B.A.) majority" (TM 2014 D. Cameron) get to have some sort of retrospective "oh, but we weren't consulted" veto.
Posted 9 years ago # -
"
"There are other cities who have taken this 20mph approach across their cities and accidents and fatalities have risen"
"
OK
Tell us more
Plus a list of councils that have reversed any 20mph schemes (and dropped plans for more)
Posted 9 years ago # -
What does he think putting safety in inverted commas achieves? Does he really think the Council is doing this just to wind people up. All the research I have seen (I've referenced a few examples in a response to one of SRD's blog posts) show that lowering speed limits to 20mph reduces the frequency of incidents and the severity of injuries suffered when there is a collision. This isn't a joke, this is people's lives we are talking about.
He supports 20mph limits on residential streets - then goes on to say he opposes 20mph limits on Leith Walk and St John's Road, which are residential streets.
He argues that the new limit shouldn't go ahead as the police won't enforce it, when the police have said that they will enforce the 20mph limit as they currently enforce the 30mph limit (1)(occasional blitzes in speeding hot spots). The thought that drivers could just choose to slow down seems too much to contemplate.
Speed cameras can work at pretty much any speed. Several types don't have Home Office approval to be used for enforcement of speeds below 30mph - these tend to be the older types of camera that are slowly being phased out. This really is a legal technicality.
The Council didn't just consult 2500 people. The consultation was available online, which means it was accessible to anyone with an internet connection. According the the International Telecommunications Union (2) there were 3,000,000,000 internet users globally at the end of 2014. Now , I appreciate that most of these people have little interest in the speed limit on Leith Walk - but if they did, then it was all available to them in black and white.
There were also the articles in the EEN, adverts on bus shelters, it was on the BBC (3) and STV news (4) at the launch of the consultation and I imagine most Scottish radio news broadcasts as well.
Where are these other cities with 20mph limits where there has been an increase in accidents and fatalities? Anyone have any ideas - I will not accept "in his fevered mind" as a valid answer.
Wow, I'm more annoyed about this than I expected.
(2) http://www.itu.int/net/pressoffice/press_releases/2014/23.aspx#.VNjC99JSiaQ
(3) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-28970224
Posted 9 years ago # -
"Wow, I'm more annoyed about this than I expected."
Sounds like you need a relaxing (non 'rush' hour) bike ride.
Basic problem is - YOU are logical/rational!
Posted 9 years ago # -
Can't you people read/understand?
Grant has done ENDLESS RESEARCH. He has contacted MANY PEOPLE. These people are involved within RELEVANT SECTORS.
Posted 9 years ago #
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