CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

20mph zones may go Scotland wide after Edinburgh trial

(797 posts)

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  1. slowcoach
    Member

    Speed limit repeater signs have not been required in general since April. (See TSRGD2016 and guidance)

    For 20mph Zone signs, repeater signs could be required as a "traffic calming feature": no part of the road should be more than 50m from "a traffic calming feature", which can include repeater signs or markings, as long as one of the other features is present somewhere within the zone. The definition of these features includes road humps etc as well as tight bends, some narrowings of the carriageway or pedestrian refuges.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  2. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Cheers chdot, Murun and slowcoach.

    @crowriver, in fairness the quote about being overtaken by bikes etc. wasn't really imbued with 'complaint' as such, more a factual statement of what was happening. True, they might have been feeling humiliated, but if they were being overtaken by bikes, and were getting angry gestures from other drivers, and were asked by the EEN if they'd noticed anything from the new limit then they're just recounting their experience....

    I mean, I wouldn't be humiliated by it (and I drive at 20 in 20 zones, so have 'suffered' both things). Not all drivers will be anti-cyclist and anti-20...

    Posted 8 years ago #

  3. Neil
    Member

    Anyone been charged with dangerous cycling yet?

    http://www.cyclelaw.co.uk/cycling-offences-riding-dangerously-recklessly-carelessly-or-inconsiderately

    From the description of the offence in the cycle law link above, it's hard to see how it could be made to stick just for cycling a bit faster than a speed limit that doesn't legally apply?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  4. Edinburgh Cycle Training
    Member

    This morning was my first drive since the new regs kicked in.

    My uisual commute of The Park, Cowgate, Grassy, Fountainbridge etc, Gyle.

    The Park 20mph was one I fely I was the only driver adhering to it. This morning was different. That 20 zone is now extended all the way to lothian Road. The traffic seemed slower and smoother, but wasn't always as slow as 20.

    So maybe most are still law breaking, butr most did seem slower.

    I could have just willed/wished that of course and it didn't really happen like that. It did feel like that though

    Posted 8 years ago #

  5. wishicouldgofaster
    Member

    Neil - I suspect there is more chance of a cyclist being charged than a speeding driver. Despite the nuber probably being at least 100x more speeding drivers than reckless cyclists.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  6. fimm
    Member

    Triathlon club mate reports being stopped by the police yesterday for cycling through a red light. Not sure where. St John's Road maybe? He says it was a deserted pedestrian crossing. He wasn't getting a lot of sympathy from the rest of us.

    Reporting this here because evidence of police activity during roll out of 20mph zones.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  7. Stickman
    Member

    @fimm: think I saw that. Was just outside the old post office.

    http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=746&page=267#post-226130

    Posted 8 years ago #

  8. gembo
    Member

    Likely the police will crack down on all such infringements if they are serious about enforcing 20. As has been stated means cyclists will get stopped more than cars as easier to stop us.

    Best therefore to stick to Highway Code (says the man who was on the pavement in Grassmarket to avoid a very badly driven DHL massive yellow lorry).

    If they start the crackdown now they will get all the festival drivers which would be interesting

    Posted 8 years ago #

  9. fimm
    Member

    @Stickman I did see your post and wonder if it was the same incident. I don't have any more information - everyone was just taking the P out of the man in question rather than asking detailed questions!

    Posted 8 years ago #

  10. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Neil Greig, IAM RoadSmart policy and research director, said a city-wide limit didn’t address “specific problematic roads”.

    “It’s a blanket approach,” he added. “On some streets, 20mph is a speed that you might aspire to rather than need to limit yourself to. But there are others where it looks and feels safer to go over 20, and that’s potentially confusing because drivers take their cue from the environment.

    “If you look at the evidence, what seems to work is measures like speed bumps and narrower roads. Covering whole areas in one 20mph limit and putting up some signs is a cheap way to do it. We’d rather see investment made in dealing with the streets where there will be the most benefit.”

    Allister McKillop, chairman of Currie community council, said he had received 15 calls from concerned residents following the introduction of the new speed limit.

    One of them came from an 87-year-old woman who is considering giving up driving altogether amid concerns she will accidentally incur penalty points.

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/our-region/edinburgh/blanket-20mph-zone-across-edinurgh-won-t-help-safety-1-4192759

    Posted 8 years ago #

  11. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    ... an 87-year-old woman who is considering giving up driving altogether amid concerns she will accidentally incur penalty points

    I'll be unkind here, and suggest that if someone believes they cannot read signs while driving to know which speed limit applies, and drive accordingly, then they shouldn't be in charge of a vehicle...

    Posted 8 years ago #

  12. gembo
    Member

    Good really if you are 87 and considering giving up driving if you cannot tell where the 20 mph zone is (everywhere except the main road through Currie, I think)

    THe signage around the station is a little confusing on the way down the 30 mph zone does not start til after the station but on the way up there is a small 20mph well beyond the bend ie when you are already presumably well inside the zone - perhaps there is another one I missed. (makes sense when you are there). I think Currie is basically an interconnecting set of back streets all of which go towards A70 or A71 all of which 20mph but of course I nould be wrong

    Posted 8 years ago #

  13. Nelly
    Member

    @gembo, I dont think you are.

    The council website has a very useful map viewer - Here it is !

    What is very obvious (to all except a blind man/taxi driver/EEN ranter) is that all the BIG MAIN ROADS are 30 (or 40) and the wee side streets are 20.

    Some roads (as they come into the more populated parts of town, Slateford Road is an example, change from 30 to 20, but they are fairly rare.

    Its not actually that difficult........

    I was surprised to see Holyrood Park remain as is (split 30/20).

    Posted 8 years ago #

  14. Nelly
    Member

    As an aside, while I dont see signage as an excuse, I can slightly understand people who ave lived in the city for decades taking time to find their feet with this one - hence the phased approach, I guess?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  15. jonty
    Member

    I'm really confused with all the Currie chat - apart from a slight extension on Curriehill Road, it's mostly been 20 for years away from the Lanark Road. Is there a more substantial extension I've missed?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  16. SRD
    Moderator

    Came thru Holyrood yesterday; boy did it feel like 30. If not 40. Horrible.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  17. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    "As an aside, while I dont see signage as an excuse, I can slightly understand people who ave lived in the city for decades taking time to find their feet with this one - hence the phased approach, I guess?"

    I do sometimes wonder that, then also wonder if that's essentially suggesting it's okay for people to be operating on autopilot when driving? Which in itself is human nature of course.

    But I've driven in plenty cities which I've never been to before, and you just have to pay attention to the signs, and your surroundings, and deal with it all. But that aspect of paying attention should be the default in my opinion, whether you're used to the city or not. So I guess my sympathy wanes somewhat.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  18. gembo
    Member

    @WC I can cycle on autopilot too sometimes but then the bike knows where it is going :-)

    I had to get to Wickes at Stevenson Rd the other day (hellish cycle) but the bike wanted to go down Wheatfield which is a dead end due to railway line I think (which might explain the white sierra or similar driving at me without looking MY Jesus Wept elicited support of a sarcastic nature from two wee old sweety wife men who were windae hinging). At the dead end the bike then wanted to take me through some business park and when that came to a dead end it pointed out a pavement which Sainsbury have put in which took me out excatly at Wickes in safety if I used traffic lights and pavement. Amazing as I have never been down there before (think it is where the Dalry/Gorgie - Roseburn off road route might go). Outside woodfiller was reason I had to go to Wickes

    Posted 8 years ago #

  19. Nelly
    Member

    @WC I agree, even when I have driven in unfamiliar places (here and abroad) I think it's just common sense to moderate speed in residential areas.

    Also, some people seem to want to hit the magic number by accelerating like a maniac away from lights - sometimes the manner of acceleration is as bad as the ultimate speed itself.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  20. chdot
    Admin

    "

    What of the 20mph legislation, partly implemented in Edinburgh this weekend? There is no doubt some people see it as making their streets more benign with less speeding vehicles. I agree that may be appropriate in some areas. We have reduced speed limits around schools, for example. But many issues need considered.

    It is clear from my discussion with police in Edinburgh that the chance of any realistic enforcement close to nil. So we end up with some people observing the new limits, most partly ignoring them and some ignoring them altogether. Introducing new laws which cannot be enforced just brings the law into contempt. So why are we spending millions in bringing in a city wide scheme when the maintenance of our roads is already appalling and getting worse over recent years and this when cash is short? I know their argument is that the 20mph zones will reduce road casualties, but the evidence from the pilot in the south of Edinburgh hardly bears that out.

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/cameron-rose-extending-state-control-is-proving-rather-costly-1-4192208

    Posted 8 years ago #

  21. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    I thought the pilot 'did' show good results? Anyone got them somewhere?

    Two things that sprung to mind as I cycled on one of the arterial routes, in a bus lane, this morning.

    If arterial routes are so arterial and important, why do we allow parking on both sides of them and loading bays that can lock off one of the lanes; and

    I wonder if the same people who are saying '20 is fine during the day, or near schools, but they shouldn't operate all the time' are the same people who complained that bus lanes were confusing because they had different times they were enforced etc.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  22. wingpig
    Member

    "Introducing new laws which cannot be enforced just brings the law into contempt. So why are we spending millions in bringing in a city wide scheme when the maintenance of our roads is already appalling and getting worse over recent years and this when cash is short?"

    The same laws (don't go over the speed limit) are already held contemptible by the contemptible who think 30mph is too low for their special abilities to drive to the conditions, except where a condition involves the presence of a number on a sign.

    It ought to slightly reduce the rate at which maintenance becomes necessary by reducing the dynamic loads applied by thundering motor traffic.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  23. Stickman
    Member

    Statistics show that pavement cycling is safe. The existing law is unenforceable. Will Cllr Rose be calling for a repeal on the current ban?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  24. slowcoach
    Member

    WC re pilot - there should be more up to date results somewhere but according to Transport Scotland's Good Practice Guide published in June this year without up to date casualty statistics: "Up to January 2014 there was a 20 per cent casualty reduction within the pilot area, though this is not statistically significant given the relatively low number of casualties involved. In addition, the monitoring of casualty data would normally take place over a three year period."

    Posted 8 years ago #

  25. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Thanks slowcoach.

    So Cameron Rose is kind of right in his comment, but being a little light on the detail.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  26. redmist
    Member

    I don't know much about these things so forgive me asking - why is this not enforceable ? And are we really "spending millions" ? Some new signs, some publicity, does that add up to "millions" ?
    And don't speed cameras soon pay for themselves through the fines generated ?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  27. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Apparently most of the speed cameras can't be recalibrated for that low a speed. And unenforceable because the police have said they won't do anything over and above what they currently do, save maybe around schools.

    Not sure on the millions though.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  28. redmist
    Member

    Wow, I would never have guessed that about the speed cameras, how useless is that.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  29. jonty
    Member

    They can presumably be set for dead on 30 though - which is probably good enough.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  30. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    This from January last year has some of the background on speed cameras (and also on the police saying they won't 'routinely enforce')

    Posted 8 years ago #

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