CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

20mph zones may go Scotland wide after Edinburgh trial

(797 posts)

  1. crowriver
    Member

    "Similarly ‘I need my car’ is more or less a reality for many people due to years of (bad) planning, lack of alternatives and general propaganda."

    There's a self-reinforcing situation if ever there was one.

    Not that long ago, bus routes (and trains for that matter) criss-crossed the country and were regulated so that your buses would connect to trains, etc. and make an integrated journey by public transport relatively painless. Trains obviously were cut back from the late 1960s and through to the 1980s. Buses deregulated 30 years ago, leading initially to wasteful competition and duplication on popular routes, and rapid withering of unprofitable ones. This all aids the shift to the "Great Car Economy" (© M. Thatcher) not only in rural areas but most of the suburban and semi-rural areas too. As people use cars for everything, bus services can no longer be sustained financially and are cut. As buses are cut, people use their cars for everything... And so on in a cycle that has accelerated in recent years.

    The only way out of this mess is regulation in various forms. That won't suit various interests but it has to happen.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  2. sallyhinch
    Member

    Borders council made it quite clear in their evidence that they've no intention of setting up any more 20mph zones. Maybe the people of the borders agree that that's suitable for a 'rural area' (although why living in a largely rural county means you can't slow down for the towns and villages that are there is left unexplained) but it does seem like a bit of a postcode lottery.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  3. Stickman
    Member

    ACH is very frustrating. He gets it but just doesn’t follow through with actions. Especially galling when this morning he’s enthusiastically tweeting about taking part in the Blackhall Primary bike bus.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  4. Morningsider
    Member

    How odd that Lib Dems are all for empowering Councils when it comes to 20mph speed limits, but oppose giving Councils the power to introduce a Workplace Parking Levy.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  5. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    I'm trying to think my way into the shoes of our politicians, particularly those with which I often disagree.

    I'm not enjoying it much - I'm forcing myself to make some pretty cynical calculations.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

  7. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Our representatives must have figured that there isn't widespread consent for this change amongst their likely voters and no advantage from trying to create such consent.

    We would need to create that consent or change their pool of potential voters.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  8. minus six
    Member

    Scream if you want to go faster

    Posted 4 years ago #
  9. NiallA
    Member

    Stickman,I hadn't realised that ACH was at Blackhall this morning (I was helping marshall the ride, and am actually just behind him in one of the photos he tweeted). If I had realised, I might have accidentally ridden over his foot... ;-)

    Posted 4 years ago #
  10. chdot
    Admin

    Glasgow’s leaders are still committed to bringing in 20mph speed limits in residential streets despite the plan being voted down in Holyrood.

    https://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/17740198.glasgow-still-committed-to-20mph-speed-limit-scheme/

    Posted 4 years ago #
  11. Stickman
    Member

    Sustainable transport guru changes his mind on 20mph:

    oh twitter, just you wait until I get all evidence-based on 20mph zones

    (spoilers: there's no evidence they're a good idea at all)

    Links to this: https://yorkcyclecampaign.bike/2019/10/01/why-york-cycle-campaign-is-neutral-on-20-mph-limits/

    Posted 4 years ago #
  12. neddie
    Member

    I wouldn’t go as far as to call him a “sustainable transport guru” given he thinks that building HS2 is a solution to climate change

    He heads up a consultancy that promotes railways, that’s all

    Posted 4 years ago #
  13. neddie
    Member

    Also strange that no one from York Cycle Campaign seems to have tweeted that blog

    Posted 4 years ago #
  14. jonty
    Member

    I think he probably has a (quite provocatively made) point - 20mph limits are of limited use on their own and more effective interventions exist. I think 'we' probably agree - if I had a choice between building segregated infrastructure on a road and making it 20mph, I know what I'd choose.

    They're definitely beneficial as a fairly good-value statement of intent even if they don't reduce average speeds at all. At the very least, they mean that the design speed of any future changes goes down to 20mph. The Edinburgh zone does seem to have reduced speeds and prevented casualties independent of congestion increases, but fundamentally drivers will drive as fast as they like and cars hurt a lot even when they hit you at 20mph. This is why it's particularly frustrating that we didn't get default urban 20mph limits - that would have removed a lot of the political and financial opportunity cost of 20mph limits and made widespread adoption a no-brainer rather than appearing to be an end in itself.

    Sometimes I feel the biggest impact of 20mph for me has just been creating another from of lawlessness for me to get upset about. It is of course hard to perceive prevented collisions though!

    Perhaps has a rail engineer his perspective is that HS2 will have a much bigger impact on climate change than all the 20mph limits in the world. I think he'd be right, but that's another debate entirely!

    Posted 4 years ago #
  15. Stickman
    Member

    Zero pedestrian or cyclist deaths in Helsinki during 2019. Thread from the (Green) Deputy Mayor:

    https://twitter.com/annisinnemaki/status/1229403372916215811?s=21


    Enhanced traffic #safety is the sum of several factors. Safety has improved due to improvements to the street environment, increased traffic control and the development of vehicle safety measures. But reducing speed limits has been the key factor.

    Helsinki #speed limits have been lowered consistently since the 1970s. The speed limit in most residential areas and the city centre is currently 30 km/h, rising to 40 km/h on major thoroughfares and 50 km/h in suburban areas.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  16. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    My bus home last night was doing 35-40mph in the 20mph South Clerk Street. Can't be bothered dobbing the driver in, it's culturally ingrained and his replacement would be the same.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  17. jonty
    Member

    When does Edinburgh get this? Should have been kicked off as part of the 20mph rollout.

    https://www.mayorwatch.co.uk/london-buses-to-be-fitted-with-speed-limiting-technology-in-bid-to-improve-road-safety/

    Posted 4 years ago #
  18. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @jonty

    That plus make all bus stops build-outs so that private motoring is never faster than the bus.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  19. slowcoach
    Member

    @jonty - speed limiting must be due soon. The Scottish Government promised to promote it as long ago as 2009.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  20. steveo
    Member

    That plus make all bus stops build-outs so that private motoring is never faster than the bus.

    Or encourage industrial scale rat running!

    Posted 4 years ago #
  21. Stickman
    Member

    https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/documents/s14508/Item%207.4%20-%2040mph%20Speed%20Limit%20Review.pdf

    40mph limits being reduced to 30mph:

    4.2.1 Lanark Road;
    4.2.2 West Approach Road;
    4.2.3 Comiston Road;
    4.2.4 Biggar Road;
    4.2.5 Riccarton Mains Road;
    4.2.6 Calder Road;
    4.2.7 Wester Hailes Road;
    4.2.8 Glasgow Road – between Gogar roundabout and Drum Brae roundabout;
    4.2.9 Glasgow Road – between Newbridge roundabout and the east end of
    Ratho Station;
    4.2.10 Old Liston Road;
    4.2.11 Gogar Station Road;
    4.2.12 South Gyle Broadway;
    4.2.13 South Gyle Access;
    4.2.14 Queensferry Road;
    4.2.15 Hillhouse Road;
    4.2.16 Frogston Brae;
    4.2.17 Seafield Road East;
    4.2.18 Sir Harry Lauder Road;
    4.2.19 Milton Link;
    4.2.20 Milton Road;
    4.2.21 Milton Road East; and
    4.2.22 Hawes Brae.
    4.3 It should also be noted that proposals are currently being progressed by other Council teams to reduce the existing 40mph speed limits on Lasswade Road and Burdiehouse Road to 30mph.
    4.4 In addition, it is proposed to reduce the existing 40mph speed limit on Braid Hills Drive to 30mph, in conjunction with the introduction of cycling facilities, as part of an Active Travel project.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  22. acsimpson
    Member

    Is that all the remaining 40mph roads within the ring road?

    Posted 4 years ago #
  23. Stickman
    Member

    Locations to Retain a 40mph Speed Limit
    Location
    Clifton Road
    Clifton Hall Road
    B924 (except Hawes Brae)
    Edinburgh Road
    Glasgow Road (between Ratho Station at Gogar Roundabout)
    Turnhouse Road
    Braid Hills Drive
    Old Dalkeith Road

    Posted 4 years ago #
  24. gembo
    Member

    Glad to see this esp the Lanark Road one as I think the inside lane after Gillespie x road heading in to town has recently become a car park. I sense maybe for people then catching bus into town. This makes cycling outside the car door zone tricky and the reduction might influence some drivers not to floor it away from the lights.

    Further down you have the pinch point s where Andrew was killed and indeed the mad cracks where the two lanes join.

    Add in the crosswinds that blow north south at kingsknowe and you get a very tricky stretch of road.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  25. Stickman
    Member

    https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/council/council-labelled-ghoulish-20mph-speed-limit-reduction-criteria-30mph-rollout-set-approval-1890687

    Cllr Kevin Lang said: “The whole point of the 20mph rollout was to prevent accidents and improve road safety. TheCouncil takes a ghoulish approach to traffic calming, waiting for people to be injured or killed before physical measures are even considered.

    “I think the Council should be taking steps to prevent accidents from happening in the first place, not sitting morbidly with a clipboard and a calculator to work out when enough people have been injured to justify action.”

    Meanwhile Nick Cook says that we should sit morbidly with a clipboard and a calculator:

    On the review of 40mph streets, the proposed actions seem disproportionate to the scale of the issue, given speeds on most of these roads are well within tolerance. Resources would be best targeted at those roads with the highest collision rates."

    Posted 4 years ago #
  26. chdot
    Admin

  27. Rosie
    Member

    https://www.eastlothiancourier.com/news/18651067.20-miles-per-hour-speed-limit-introduced-kellie-road/

    "THE speed limit on the main road to one of East Lothian’s largest primary schools could be temporarily reduced under changes being considered by the local authority.

    All the roads in the Hallhill area of Dunbar have a 20mph speed limit, with the exception of Kellie Road."

    This is 20mph in a road with a primary school and it makes the news. Temporary at that.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  28. Stickman
    Member

    https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/crashes-cut-one-third-after-20mph-limit-introduced-edinburgh-3117175

    The university said the research “provided compelling evidence that a structural change occurred leading to a further decline in the rates of collisions, which can be associated with introduction of the 20mph speed limit.

    However, Dr Valentin Popov, of the school of mathematics and statistics, who led the study published in the journal published in Environment and Planning B, said the decline might have been due to a “cultural shift” rather than directly attributable only to the introduction of the new lower limit.

    Dr Popov said: “We have reasons to believe the 20mph policy was effective, at least in the short-term.

    "This shows that 20mph limits are worth considering in cities where there is a concerted will to reduce RTCs and make roads safer for users.”

    Nick Cook was unavailable for comment.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  29. Morningsider
    Member

    Good news. The odd thing is that the journal article actually has hee-haw to do with road safety and is really an attempt to fit two models to the collision data for Edinburgh.

    Not going to claim I fully understand what the article is really saying - many moons since I did any modelling (maths that is, obviously still doing the Calvin Klein stuff).

    Posted 3 years ago #
  30. Stickman
    Member

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/20mph-speed-limits-look-set-be-coming-your-town-soon-alastair-dalton-3131571

    Among a mini avalanche of reports just published by Transport Scotland as part of a new major projects blueprint were plans for a “national strategy to guide the implementation of 20mph zones".

    Posted 3 years ago #

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