CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

20mph zones may go Scotland wide after Edinburgh trial

(797 posts)

  1. chdot
    Admin

    This is about the Picture House, but the numbers demonstrate the difference between those prepared to do an FB 'like', or click on a petition, and do something a bit more involved - like fill in a consultation form, go to an event, or write to councillors!

    "

    The row comes after more than 13,000 people signed a petition against plans to turn the Picture House into a Wetherspoon’s, while a parliamentary motion opposing the change won cross-party support.

    Planning chiefs also said more than 140 objections had been lodged with the council.

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/eric-milligan-shocked-by-police-super-pub-stance-1-3663205

    Posted 9 years ago #
  2. SRD
    Moderator

    Thanks morningsider! care to pop back and discuss statistics with the bloke who has posted some comments? we've already had this discussion on twitter, so there';s not much more i can add.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  3. ARobComp
    Member

    I just posted this which might answer his q's. His argument is of the straw man type and clearly not very well articulated. If you can't explain exactly what x is then you're completely wrong.

    "
    http://pedestrianliberation.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/london-casualties-008.png

    The above map (ignore the linkname it does link to a map for Edinburgh shows us the incidents of traffic collisions (recorded by the police which we also know is not all of them) and has them broken down by fatalities etc for the period 2001-2010.
    AS these are in the city centre I would suggest that we could suspect that the vehicle was going at between 20-30mph

    I can try and find the data set and more recent data this evening.

    The point is I think that some of the more serious routes are the ones that will be kept at 30mph... so in fact it's clear that the "arterial routes at 30mph should clearly be reduced to 20mph as well. "

    Posted 9 years ago #
  4. I don't get why he needs to know the deaths and injuries between 20 and 30.

    If there are lots of deaths then the need to reduce the limit is clear, but even if there are, say, none, that is assuming that in a 30 limit people stick to 30. Evidence suggests that even if people don't stick to 20 they'll still be below 30, which brings those who used to drive at 35 in a 30 limit into the threshold of no deaths, so again beneficial.

    The very simple answer, of course, is that anywhere that limits hav eppe been so reduced the levels of deaths and injuries have fallen. Even if some are still killed or injured between 20 and 30, the overall damage is reduced. Simple. Empirically proven.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  5. Wow, been reading some of the FB group stuff.

    Just wow.

    How can so much opinion be posted as fact? They even specifically posted about taxis costing more, and despite a number of taxis saying fares are based on distance still people rumble on saying, "Yeah, taxis are going to cost more!" Including someone who claimed to actually be a taxi driver.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  6. SRD
    Moderator

    Oh and supposedly cyclists are going to be too scared to cycle once the limits are at 20mph

    ?!

    Posted 9 years ago #
  7. ARobComp
    Member

    The say no to 20mph page is fantastic.

    Some of the things they're saying are amazing.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  8. ARobComp
    Member

    So far favourite ones are the conspiracy ones, the ones who are freaking out about the fact we actually HAVE a council, the one's blaming it on us and spokes, and the lynch mobs. Brill.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  9. ARobComp
    Member

    Also his Survey-monkey petition is basically giving him peoples names and addresses to an uncontrolled database... slightly worrying perhaps? Not sure I'd be happily handing over my name and address to a random survey monkey.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  10. chdot
    Admin

    "

    EDINBURGH’S 20mph plans are facing fresh criticism as it emerged the roads selected for speed cuts were chosen for the number of shops and homes rather than accident rates.

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/20mph-speed-limit-based-upon-shops-not-safety-1-3663199

    So???

    Posted 9 years ago #
  11. Stickman
    Member

    I'm calling Poe's Law on that Facebook page.

    And let's start the spread on turnout to their march on 14th February. I'm saying 40 to 60.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  12. Just for the hell of it, I have contacted:

    BMW
    Mini
    VW
    Citroen
    Peugeot
    Renault
    Suzuki
    Toyota
    Ford
    Vauxhall
    Honda
    Lamborghini
    Ferrari
    Nissan
    Audi
    Lexus, and
    Aston Martin

    (Mercedes' and Fiat's contact pages wouldn't work on my machine)

    … with the following request,

    "Dear Sirs

    I hope you can help me with what may be a very simple query. In light of Edinburgh's decision to put 20mph limits in place in the majority of the city, is it possible with your cars to drive as economically at 20mph as at 30mph? Could fuel economy suffer, or be improved? And would there be any impact on emissions?

    Many thanks in advance
    Anthony"

    Posted 9 years ago #
  13. Stickman
    Member

    @WC: I could have saved you the effort. At 20mph modern cars go critical and emit gamma radiation. You can protect yourself by wearing a hat made from a folded-up Evening News (tin foil is ineffective).

    Now that's a scientific fact: there's no real evidence for it, but it is scientific fact.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  14. :D

    I do remember a lovely discussion with someone on the EEN who was adamant about faster driving = more efficient. I mentioned my car has an indicator for which gear to be in for the best economy at that speed and effort (i.e. can effectively tell if it's going uphill etc) and the response was something along the lines of, "Well yes, but those indicators don't give the correct gear, they don't work, and car companies just want you to use more fuel." I pondered the logic of car companies deliberately wanting to cause customers more expense, and deviate wildly from their own claimed MPG stats, but discretion, valour, and so on.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  15. chdot
    Admin

    "and deviate wildly from their own claimed MPG stats"

    That is a different, but perhaps relevant issue here.

    Manufacturers go to great lengths to 'inflate' mpg figures, so people comparing their actual 'top speed 20' consumption with manufacutuers' 'urban cycle' claim will be disappointed.

    Presume they'll do their own 'max 30' calculations too...

    Posted 9 years ago #
  16. neddie
    Member

    There will be a big difference in economy between a car that is driven at a constant 20 (or 30) and one that accelerates full throttle to 20 (or 30) for 100 yds then back down to zero in another 100 yds.

    The latter is what most drivers currently do.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  17. Roibeard
    Member

    I'm really tempted to roll up to their protest march, either slightly behind or slightly ahead.

    The question is, would it be better to motor through at a legal 30mph (with optional horn hooting), or would it be better to trundle in front on the bike...

    ;-)

    Robert

    Posted 9 years ago #
  18. Morningsider
    Member

    I've had a look through the No to 20 mph Facebook page and website. My overwhelming impression is that most supporters are motivated by a small-minded selfishness. The reduction in speed limits will affect THEM, which should not be allowed to happen.

    The justifications for opposing the 20 mph limit are laughable. It will make cycling more dangerous, increase pollution, bankrupt the city, is undemocratic...

    On the evidence available, none of these people strike me as the type to be concerned about cyclist safety, air pollution, city finances or local politics. If they were then they would have acquainted themselves with the relevant facts, been aware of the 20 mph consultation when it actually happened and would be actively engaged in improving their communities through the myriad bodies working to do just that.

    I doubt there is much point in trying to engage with these people. They have already dismissed peer reviewed research, Government statistics and even the evidence of their own eyes, in support of their views.

    I'm loath to criticise the abuse of the English language on these sites, but I have to make two points.

    (1) Being a "sceptic" involves more than saying that all the research into 20 mph limits is rubbish
    (2) "Undemocratic" does not mean an elected body taking a decision, following a widely publicised consultation, that you disagree with.

    The difference with CCE is jarring - personal abuse, hate, anger and ignorance abound. There is no community, no sense that we can make Edinburgh a better place - simply a view that we cannot change the status quo as it will affect ME.

    The 20mph limit aims to protect the vulnerable (children, pedestrians, cyclists, the elderly) from the powerful (drivers of large, fast vehicles). It aims to improve the local environment through reductions in noise and air pollution. It aims to breath life into streets where community life cannot currently flourish due to the effects of fast moving traffic.

    I am proud to support the 20 mph limit. I know that I am on the right side of this debate, as all the available evidence supports my stance.

    I thought twice about posting this, as I probably come across as "an elitist" or "a snob". I'm happy to take the flak though, as I suspect this will be an equivalent of the smoking ban. Lots of protest beforehand, followed by a grudging acceptance and then a wonder that we ever allowed such high speeds in towns. There will always be some people who remain unconvinced. Here's my advice to them. Buy a bike - it will help lower your blood pressure, I think that might do you some good.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  19. chdot
    Admin

    @M

    Fine analysis.

    Possibly even based on 'evidence'...

    Posted 9 years ago #
  20. Min
    Member

    Well said Morningsider!

    Posted 9 years ago #
  21. algo
    Member

    indeed - fine sentiments and reasoning by Morningsider, SRD and all….

    @WC - I agree with you - I don't understand what the commentator on SRD's blog hopes to achieve from knowing the statistics on 20-30mph accidents. I can only guess to abduce the hypothesis he is hoping to support, but in any case one would have to make a great deal of assumptions about the correlation between the speed and the limits… which as you rightly point out - cannot be made.

    I read a bit of Facebook page but had to leave in disgust - rarely have I seen such opinion devoid of coherent reasoning. Stickman is right about Poe's law (thanks for introducing me to that!)

    Posted 9 years ago #
  22. wingpig
    Member

    The only useful purpose served by the FB page is that it would allow someone with sufficient time/serenity reserves to find out the real names of some of the vituperativest EEN frothbags by comparing bonnet types and bee levels.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  23. SRD
    Moderator

  24. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    That Facebook page could well spawn a second dedicated to pedantry about the first.

    "Then their might be less accidents"

    Let slip the dogs of English usage....

    Posted 9 years ago #
  25. LaidBack
    Member

    Thanks SRD for summarising the 'no-limits' FB page.

    I was going to suggest that by their logic then the city would be safer with faster moving traffic... but they've already done that apparently.

    Will these drivers take action by boycotting Edinburgh? We can hope!

    Posted 9 years ago #
  26. Stickman
    Member

    I admire your patience and restraint in your responses SRD.

    Latest suggestion in the comments over at that Facebook page: increase speed limits so that pedestrians are more aware of the danger....

    Posted 9 years ago #
  27. LaidBack
    Member

    yes... motorways are safer you see. Statistically proven!

    Posted 9 years ago #
  28. SRD
    Moderator

    OMG (as they say). the page owner has posted up a news story with the headline '27% of drivers nearly hit pedestrian because of mobile'. with a pic of pecs on mobiles. but the story is actually about drivers being on their mobiles....

    Posted 9 years ago #
  29. Min
    Member

    Okay, this has really got to be a false flag operation. Which one of you is it? Own up!

    Posted 9 years ago #
  30. Stickman
    Member

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    Posted 9 years ago #

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