Why Bother Remonstrating?? « CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum

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Why Bother Remonstrating??

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Started 11 years ago by Radgeworks
Latest reply from Uberuce

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Radgeworks
Member

Hello everyone,

Having just been told to "mind my own f**king business and p*ss off" when pointing out someone was inches from injuring or killing me about half an hour ago, ive decided that in future i will not be pointing out bad driving to anyone in a vehicle.
And i am now of the mindset that if I am cycling safely and as legally as possible (area dependent), and any driver isnt, an anonymous cyclist making any sort of comment about that to the motorist will usually be abused initially and certainly disregarded out of hand. This incident is the final nail in the coffin of my reasonableness, and one of so so many that i have experienced in Edinburgh.
So my proverbial gloves are now off, politeness for good drivers is deserved and usually reciprocated.
Bad drivers dont give a crap what you say to them, the arrogance and conceit is self evident, so i think premptive verbal abuse for them is quite apt from now on.
And i am now quite prepared to become an ass to these fools. A sad sign of the times i think. As i am usually last to stoop to the level of fools, but i am now convinced you must have to because its the ONLY language they understand. Respect costs nothing eh...
BUT, this.is.Edinburgh! Peace. RJ

Posted 11 years ago #
cc
Member

Your life is certainly your business.
Sounds like a horrible experience :-(

Posted 11 years ago #
PS
Member

"Mind you own business"? Ensuring your own survival isn't your own business?

I remonstrated with a driver who passed me far too close on Queen's Drive last night. On the bit where it flattens out just as you approach the roundabout behind the Scotsman offices, I was going in the high 20s mph about a yard out from the kerb and a wee red car (fiesta, I think) overtook me about three inches to the right of my elbow. There was nothing coming in the other direction, so I was somewhat disappointed by the lack of space given to me.

I signalled this to the driver by suggesting with my figners that he should give me 2 metres' cycle space, although it could easily have looked like I'd given him the full Mark Cavendish/Agincourt gesture. I presume he was feeling a bit guilty as he saw my gesture in his rear view mirror and stuck his hand out the window and pointed to the right. Not sure what that meant (perhaps that he thought I was too far to the right?). That hand signal then quickly changed to the single digit to which he got a repeated thumb out to the right motion from me to say "you should have moved the right".

There then ensued an awful lot of hand gestures within the car, but no longer directed at me. His front seat passenger seemed to start remonstrating with him as well (she'd have seen how close the pass was a lot better than him), and he seemed to be trying to justify his actions to her. I can only hope she told him how bad he was at driving and that it made a lasting impression on him...

Posted 11 years ago #
stiltskin
Member

I wonder if the Niceway code is having an effect?

Posted 11 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"I wonder if the Niceway code is having an effect?"

Let's assume it is, in the way that was intended.

The problem is of course the people that would have heeded it probably weren't that bad in the first place. It has had no effect on the rest.

Unless of course…

Posted 11 years ago #
Min
Member

I don't think the Niceway code in itself is to blame for any increase in aggro on the roads but I'll bet the constant onslaught of media negativity, calling us vermin and louts and law-breakers is. I bet some drivers feel justified in attempting to exterminate the "problem" ie us.

Posted 11 years ago #
minus six
Member

Bad drivers dont give a crap what you say to them

That's mostly true, isn't it. They need to be policed, but sadly they are given free reign to dick about as small-time bullies on the public highway.

Calmly remonstrating gets you a blank look at best, or an angry violent response, if they've decided you are not up to much.

I refrain from talking specifically about any of the serious incidents that occur on my commute, because my adrenalised reactions can be confrontational, and frankly I am mindful that the police monitor this forum, as some kind of community outreach exercise.

The police routinely fail to protect vulnerable road users. Who among us ever bother to appeal to them? I don't blame the rank and file copper - first and foremost its a political issue, at both local and national authority level.

Posted 11 years ago #
559
Member

@RonnieJ
I would totally agree with your approach which I share.
What I do try and do now is address the miscreant driver as firmly as possible, without resorting to swearing or abuse, swearing seems to be a pull an extra trigger with them.

I do try to follow the above, but not always possible.

Posted 11 years ago #
fimm
Member

Funnily enough...
I cycle this road to and from Livingston North station most days (when I don't take the big bike & cycle the whole way). Note the many pinch points on a straight, wide road with a 40 mph speed limit - they are there only to slow traffic, there's no reason to cross the road for most of its length. I try to take an assertive position through the pinch points, as I have no wish to be passed closely at 45mph. Once through the pinch point, I'll drift to the left a bit, but keep an eye behind ready for the next one.

So today I spot a car coming up behind me fairly briskly, so I give it a hard stare and carry on... once through the pinch the driver gives me one of the closest passes I've ever had. I made the gesture that the Nice Way Code says I shouldn't make at him, and he stopped! So I stopped a bit back from him (I don't want to get to close) and we proceeded to have a non-conversation, him saying that I should be at the side of the road and me trying to explain why I was not.

In retrospect I wish I had asked him why he felt the need to threaten a women with a tonne of metal. I also wish I'd pointed out that I've probably had a driving licence since before he was born. I was trying to keep calm (after the initial gesturing) and think I succeeded - but I don't think either of us gained anything from the conversation.

Posted 11 years ago #
MeepMeep
Member

One of the most heart in mouth moments for me as a female cyclist - when a driver stops dead in the middle of nowhere to confront you after a gestured conversation through their rear-view mirror. You're braver than I, fimm - I never stop. I know I could hold my own on adrenaline because I specifically work on my strength and reactions, but my flight reaction always seems to take over.

I go through spells of utter despair coupled with immediate and thoughtless swearing/gesticulation, followed by apathy for my own wellbeing. I just couldn't not commute by bike now though - too many personal benefits.

Posted 11 years ago #
Snowy
Member

Saw a cyclist today receive a very close pass on their way up Dundas Street, from a car which had loads of room to move over. Must have only been 2 inches from the wingmirror hitting them. No apparent 'reason'...the bike was only doing about 5mph and was in no-one's way.
The sad bit was the car behind was a police car, which either missed it entirely or couldn't be @rsed doing anything about it. I know what my money is on.

Posted 11 years ago #
sallyhinch
Member

I was thinking this just this afternoon after a white van close overtook me at the approach to a mini roundabout and then promptly turned left. The window was open, so I could have explained how passing a cyclist and then turning left while she was likely in your blind spot might have ended badly, if only for the paintwork on your van, but in the end I chickened out. There's a remote possibility you might get someone who was just a bit oblivious and might understand your point but the odds are against it.

Posted 11 years ago #
fimm
Member

MeepMeep, genuine question, what do you fear might happen? I mean, really in the middle of nowhere is one thing, but this was a fairly busy (with cars at least) street in Livingston. I've always assumed that being female is at least some protection against being punched... maybe I'm wrong. And I did stop a decent distance behind the car, so that if he had got out I'd have had time to react.

Posted 11 years ago #
fimm
Member

The thing that makes me angry is that he thought it was acceptable to threaten me with his car, just because he didn't like the way I was using the road.

In retrospect I wish I'd challenged him more, rather than trying to counter his assertion that I should be at the edge of the road.

Posted 11 years ago #
AKen
Member

I haven't had the need to have a word with anyone for a long while, but this morning, I was overtaken far too closely on the approach to a pinch point by a white hatchback.

Of course, the young guy driving then had to stop about 15 seconds later at traffic lights so I stopped next to him and motioned for him to wind down his window.

I then told him to give me a bit more space next time. He mumbled something I didn't catch then, to his credit, apologised. He passed me again after another set of lights, but had held back until a safe spot this time.

Posted 11 years ago #
amir
Member

In my experience, most drivers do get offended and some quite aggressive when I point out that they nearly splatted me. In general I don't think that they learn from it and it risks a road rage incident and at least raises my blood pressure. For that reason, I try to avoid reacting. I often fail though.

We have to tackle bad driving at a higher level. I pray that the numbers of cyclists effect comes into play at some point because I have little faith in the police or government doing anything effective.

Posted 11 years ago #
PS
Member

I'd love to know the reason why otherwise reasonable and rational people take any criticism of their driving so personally. I'm sure there'll have been a study on it somewhere...

Posted 11 years ago #
Coxy
Member

I think most people would get irritated/annoyed/upset if criticised about anything by a stranger. An immediate confrontation doesn't do anyting to help with the self-awareness either.

Driving is a inherently 'aggressive' task for most people and I think when suddenly faced with someone 'telling them off', they return fire with fire.

But, for some, this involves retributional close-passes, punches, screaming, threats. And obviously, they're the psycho's.

However, I still reserve the right to go 'chasing' after someone with the D-lock in hand!

Posted 11 years ago #
algo
Member

In my experience I never really gain anything from remonstrating with drivers, but I still fail to refrain sometimes. Drivers (including me) are conditioned to some extent to react aggressively to other drivers, motorcyclists, pedestrians and cyclists - something about feeling isolated from the reality of the confrontation by being in a box. Unfortunately a lot of drivers don't know how vulnerable it can feel to be a cyclist. I try my best not to react badly when in a car, but I know how frustrated I get in traffic when I just want to get home and deal with the screaming baby.

I have received all sorts of "advice" from motorists which amounts to nothing more than prejudiced nonsense motivated only by the fact I am the nearest obstacle perceived to be impeding their progress. I always wish I could stop and reason with them and perhaps explain what is taught to cyclists on the road - for me this is the gap between cyclists and drivers which causes most problems -- drivers think they know where cyclists should be, without any knowledge of the vernacular (primary position etc) which we all share and are taught as cyclists.

To stop a car and aggressively confront a lone cyclist is unforgiveable and should be actionable in my opinion, and I'm sorry to hear that happened - it would scare me a great deal.

Posted 11 years ago #
559
Member

@coxy
Your comment re D locks reminded me of when I challenged a oncoming cyclist to keep left through the "path" section at Russell Road when the tram works were on. their reaction was to dismount and threaten with their D Lock.

Posted 11 years ago #
Dunny
Member

I had an incident about 2 years ago on Ferry road, just approaching the crew toll roundabout heading east-west. I looked over my right shoulder before signalling for the right hand lane just before the lights, as I needed the 3rd exit for Davidsons Mains. I still can't understand where the guy in the white estate came from, because when I checked the road behind me was completely clear for about 100 feet. Nobody even close. He may have come off the roundabout from the opposite direction then pulled a u-turn after the roundabout, or fell from the sky. Anyway, as I moved over into the right lane, he flew up my right and clipped my bar with his mirror, then immediately moved to the left to take the first exit. We both stopped at the roundabout, where I told him he's just hit me and asked if he was even aware. He pulled me into his car and started punching the top of my head, let me go then drove off. He never said a word. This all happened within about 7 or 8 second.

I decided there and then that my decision to remonstrate with a driver depends on how aggressive the pass is in the first place. It's true that some people will take heed, others offence. I reckon there are clues to the likelihood of which in their initial mistake.

Posted 11 years ago #
Coxy
Member

Like when dealing with an aggressive dog - stand with the bike between you and the emerging driver!

559 - sorry to hear that! My remark was a bit flippant.

Posted 11 years ago #
559
Member

@coxy
No apologies needed, I never really understood the need for D locks until that moment, always thought they were a bit inflexible as a locking facility and heavy, obviously I was missing their potential as a weapon!

Posted 11 years ago #
neddie
Member

I don't think remonstrating is very useful, other than to let off some steam (but you end up feeling bad afterward anyway).

After all you can't educate morons in the context of the street, after a near miss.

More productive would be to email your MSP/councillor, every time it happens. Perhaps then they will realise there is a problem, especially if everyone does it. Just copy and paste what you already wrote in the 'Rubbish driving' thread!

Maybe 'we' could create a template letter, explaining the need for better policing, infrastructure, whatever, where you simply insert incident and send...

Posted 11 years ago #
Kenny
Member

I think most people would get irritated/annoyed/upset if criticised about anything by a stranger. An immediate confrontation doesn't do anyting to help with the self-awareness either...

+1 for Coxy's entire post, albeit maybe not the bit about the d-lock ;)

I tend to find that there is little point in speaking to drivers in the slightest any more. As Coxy says, if a driver is criticised, especially by a road user who he believes is inconveniencing *him*, then it often merely results in an aggressive response.

The only time I had any success was when a driver almost took me out at the roundabout at the end of Davidson's Mains Main Street, when he turned left as I was going straight on. The only reason he apologised was because he noticed I had a camera on my helmet, before which he wasn't considering apologising. Aside from that, no joy, so I don't bother doing anything unless someone literally almost hits me and the red mist descends, at which point there's nothing I can do to stop myself.

Posted 11 years ago #
steveo
Member

I must admit I never feel bad after shouting at bad drivers. But what I'd really like to do is sit down and try to have a reasonable discussion about the standard of their driving and their perceived aggravations and when that goes no where break out the d-lock...

Posted 11 years ago #
fimm
Member

We were walking down a pavement (three abrest, the horror...) when a cyclist came up behind us and said "Excuse me". Somewhat to my surprise, my boyfriend challenged him that he should be cycling on the road. "I haven't got a helmet," said the cyclist. My boyfriend informed him that he was allowed to cycle on the road without a helmet, the cyclist cycled on to the road and went away down it! I was quite surprised.

Posted 11 years ago #
MeepMeep
Member

Sorry fimm, just catching back up on this thread.

I am genuinely afraid not of being assaulted and injured in an area with footfall or traffic, but of the social pschology phenomenon where everyone else will assume someone else will help (I can't remember the authors of the more famous studies but a lot was done in the 90s on this IIRC from my uni course).

In rural locations, like country roads - even the A701 - I am honestly scared of the prospect of being sexually assaulted. A small probability from a road spat and may be an irrational fear, but if a driver stops his car and gets out to give you a mouthful of abuse (which I'd not deem socially responsible), what else might they be capable of?

Posted 11 years ago #
fimm
Member

MeepMeep, I've always assumed that being female is at least some protection from being punched... but I suppose if the red mist had totally descended (wasn't there something about a 70 year old deaf man being beaten up recently?) then sexual assault might be a risk in a quiet area. The chances of that happening must be vanishingly small, though...

Posted 11 years ago #
Uberuce
Member

My sister, when she was still a beat cop, always went into pub brawls first. Even drunks being all thuggy would baulk at hitting a woman, so she'd be able to cuff them, they'd get charged for breach and get their night in the cells.

If the male officers went in they tended to get walloped too, and then there was bigger charges and much more paperwork.

Posted 11 years ago #

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Why Bother Remonstrating??

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