http://rdrf.org.uk/2013/09/20/victim-blaming-from-the-road-haulage-association
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
"VICTIM BLAMING FROM THE ROAD HAULAGE ASSOCIATION"
(36 posts)-
Posted 11 years ago #
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How Nice ...
Posted 11 years ago # -
I wouldn't mind so much but the number of times trucks Pull along side in slow traffic despite they can't get past. Whilst I know odds are its all fine it's does make me incredibly nervous.
The cyclists don't filter signs seem to be getting more prevalent. I'm not sure it's victim blaming as much blame shifting. The sign said don't do it, you were warned, how typically 'elf and safety Britain...
Posted 11 years ago # -
the first two bullet points are fair advice
they can stick the rest where the sun don't shine
Posted 11 years ago # -
What kind of headphones would you have to be wearing not to notice an HGV?
I got passed by a timber lorry yesterday which then started to pull back over to the left while its trailer was still passing me. What advice does the RHA have for me when that happens? Obviously I jammed on my brakes, but if I hadn't would that have been my fault because I wasn't wearing a hi-vis jacket?
Posted 11 years ago # -
@o_O Hear hear
Posted 11 years ago # -
RHA supported NWC.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I'll agree to mandatory bright yellow cycling clothing for 'safety' reasons, when all cars are by law painted bright yellow for the same reason.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Well let's respond with a few bits of advice for truck drivers then.
1) Don't partially overtake a cyclists and then slow down & pull in or turn left. If in doubt DO NOT attempt to overtake by wait behind the cyclist unless invited to pass
2) When you need space to turn it's your responsibility to signal this clearly and your responsibility to make sure other road users are aware of your exaggerated course - if in doubt STOP and make an additional check. When manoeuvring in severely restricted spaces you should use one or more banksmen to ensure other road users are clearly aware of your movements and make you aware of the traffic in the areas of road which 'disappear' from view when making a tight turn.
3) Observe ASL road markings, Mandatory cycle lanes and do not attempt to enter advisory cycle lanes when there are cyclists using them. Observe speed limits relating to your class on vehicle (HGV's widely fail to observe speed limits) and traffic signals showing a stop aspect (red, amber & red with amber)
4) Do not use mobile phones, CB radios, audio equipment at high volume and drive with the driver's window fully closed. The lack of direct vision from the cab of your truck makes the use of your hearing even more vital than for a smaller vehicle with fewer 'blind spots' *
5) Ensure all the mirrors which compensate for the poor design of your truck and its blind spots, and all lifeguards fitted to close off the areas under the truck are securely fitted and correctly adjusted to comply with the law (remembering that there is a £100 penalty and 3 points for every item which fails to comply up to a maximum of 3 items in a VOSA or Police check and the issue of a PG9 (immediate) for a vehicle with multiple or serious failures)
6) make sure your presence does not come as a surprise or threat to cyclists by NOT passing close and at speed, closing up rapidly behind, and following at a distance where you will be unable to stop if the cyclist does. Remember here that section 170 and your liability for injury or damage to property applies if the cyclist is brought off their bike by your backwash, and your failure to stop in such circumstances is an offence.
* I had a truck pull out from a turning on the tight side of a road right in front of me despite shouting and making a racket when I saw that the driver was not looking in my direction at all. to avoid a collision I mounted the footway and stopped in front of the truck. All his windows were closed and the radio was on.
s.170 RTA 1988 and equivalent in R(Sc)A When the presence of a motor vehicle causes damage or injury then the driver has to provide details (ie the basics of presumed liability are already in place and have been since 1903 Motor Car Act required this and third party liability to be covered, it is just the enforcement that we fail to deliver on).
Posted 11 years ago # -
"lifeguards fitted to close off the areas under the truck"
does anyone know the law about these? I was passed by a vehicle belonging to Wild Fox Events the driver of which wasn't being quite as considerate as I would have liked - just running a bit close, really. The thing that I really didn't like was this vehicle was a perfect cyclist killing machine - it had big high wheels with lots and lots of space underneath it and I felt it would be quite easy to go underneath, there was nothing to stop you. I think it was some kind of ex-military vehicle. I pulled a few agressive filtering moves to keep away from it. No doubt the thing was legal, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.Posted 11 years ago # -
Potentially a MAN 6 tonne truck or similar. Built for high ground clearance, which is clearly also the same thing as person-chomping ability... Used lots by the MoD, so old ones are presumably pretty cheap to pick up by outdoors-y type companies.
Generally give them a wide berth. Military drivers may well be well trained, but they're not behind the wheel all the time like a 'normal' lorry driver.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Military drivers may well be well trained
They aren't. They learn to drive in a week and are the worst drivers I have ever seen. And that is really saying something.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Just a reminder -
Posted 11 years ago # -
They aren't. They learn to drive in a week and are the worst drivers I have ever seen. And that is really saying something.
The biggest causes of non-combat deaths for soldiers in Iraq are suicide and traffic accidents, together accounting for over 700 deaths in US forces (don't know about UK figures).
Military veterans were 75% more likely to be involved in a fatal road accident after returning to the US.
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-05-05/national/39048053_1_motor-vehicle-crashes-two-wars
Posted 11 years ago # -
The vehicle may be ex-military, but that doesn't mean the driver (of the one I saw) was!
Posted 11 years ago # -
highway code,
introduction
The most vulnerable road users are pedestrians , particularly children,older,or disabled people, cyclists, motorcyclists and horse riders. It is important that ALL road users are aware of the code and are considerate towards each other.This applies to pedestrians as much as to drivers and riders.Surely we all have a duty to look after each other, not just have a go at the biggest targets. We all know that hgv, are inherently problematic when in the same area as cyclists etc, but lets not forget that cyclists arnt perfect either ! I know of the horrendous accidents that have happened, but not all hgv drivers are cowboys. Most truck drivers are only doing it for money, its a horrible dirty tiring way to earn a living, and some of us actually cycle , lots !Quoting vosa and other regulations are great, but am sure that there are rules and regulations relating cycle use on the public highway!
hgv without crash bars are generally , only logging vehicles, skeletal container trailers, which can alter length, or other special type approved vehicles. Military have various other regs, but I would imagine, that when in the public ownership they should revert back to civilian regs.
We all need to use our roads , and there will always be idiots and people who god forbid make mistakes, and in no way am I disregarding terrible accidents,even cyclists !
lets just all agree to be a bit more considerate, both ways and take care !
ScottPosted 11 years ago # -
if in doubt STOP (or slow down) and make an additional check
Is the correct answer for just about every situation while using the road. Unfortunately everyone's journey is always more important than everyone else's.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Surely we all have a duty to look after each other, not just have a go at the biggest targets.
I know where you're coming from, but at the end of the day, more than 50% of people being killed are at the hands of truck drivers who make up just 5% of vehicle movements.
As ordinary members of the public, you'd expect cyclists to fall short of perfection, but can't we expect more of professionals? I mean, it's being reported that virtually 100% of HGVs found not to be road legal in police checks (I'm not sure if that's all the responsibility of the driver - might be the firm? Small consolation to the dead though).
Posted 11 years ago # -
small consolation indeed, I restate, in no way am I trying to lessen the actions or magnitude of accidents.
Trucking nowadays is not really the way it used to be, most of the trucks on the road are now run bu large, mainly responsible companies, it isn't really a good way to make money, small or mid size companies cant really compete, my companies vehicles, trailers and units are on a six week service schedule, run by the vehicle manufacturers.I not only have to perform a legal, duty of care pre operational check, I need to perform a post journey check as well.I am not, and the CPC training will inform every driver that unless they are qualified, they cannot even change a bulb , or blow up a tyre.The transport industry has indeed been guilty of some....cavalier attitudes but I honestly think that this is changing.Some branches, and the photo of a nice tipper is an example,still are run by "cowboys" but surely these exist in every walk of life.
I am in no way trying to defend these people, but please, not all cyclists are rljers, in the same way not all LGV operators are cowboys.
All defects are indeed the responsibility of the driver, but the RTA states it is an offence to cause or permit an offence to be committed , hence if a driver informs his employer of an illegality, then the manager is also liable, which is changing attitudes of some less than reputable managers and employers.
Scott,
be safe no matter what you use !Posted 11 years ago # -
The problem with HGVs vs Cyclists is disproportionately a London thing where the big lorries are banned overnight so tend to pile into London first thing, just as the rush hour gets going. Removing the overnight ban and replacing it with a peak hours ban would probably do a lot more to make cyclists safer than any amount of lecturing of cyclists OR drivers.
Any safety programme which relies on all parties behaving 100% correctly 100% of the time is going to end in tears. Separating bikes and trucks as much as possible - in time or in space - has got to be a better bet.
Posted 11 years ago # -
London also has a lot of construction megaprojects going on (things like the Shard, Crossrail, etc.) where everything comes in and leaves by tipper trucks, which are expressly banned by the authorities from night time operation, meaning they all pile in to London first thing and back out again last thing (i.e. rush hour) so that work can get going on sites.
I have bad memories of NWH (Neil Williams Haulage?) tipper lorries going back and forward between the quarries at Ratho when I lived up there and always steer well clear of them when I see them in town. The ones returning to the quarry were the worst as they are unladen and can get up to some speed without 10 tonnes of rocks in the back.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Any safety programme which relies on all parties behaving 100% correctly 100% of the time is going to end in tears. Separating bikes and trucks as much as possible - in time or in space - has got to be a better bet.
Agree 100%, although personally I have never had any kind of safety scare with an HGV, mainly because I give acres of room and tend not to filter past whether apparently safe or not. I'm afraid of them basically. But I'm alive.
Posted 11 years ago # -
@chdot The tipper lorry you show seems to have protective side skirts, which should make it more difficult for a cyclist to go under the wheels (you could still get 'hooked' though)
I thought the problem* with tipper lorries was that they were exempt from having side skirts as they needed the ground clearance on building sites, and bits of plastic/steel that could get clagged up with mud would be 'undesirable'...
* As well as they fact they are agile & fast with limited vision
Posted 11 years ago # -
All of them - plus the idea (maybe no longer true) that such types of lorries have drivers paid per trip.
Posted 11 years ago # -
My nightmare close call memories..
Take a bow:
Robert Purvis plant hire
and
Grant Construction tippers
all correspondence ignored, natch
Posted 11 years ago # -
@chdot, yep most are still paid a bonus based on number of loads,@ eddie_h, not sure of type approval regs but assume that a max distance between "low" parts of vehicle should be covered by crash bars,@ o_O, I refer to my previous comments m, lord, tippers and construction involved drivers ! Thing with plant operators, they need a qualified driver occasionally to drive a full 44 tonne wagon,(low loader), but if the driver can also(primary job ) operate an off road exempt from European driving hours vehicle , then two for the very low price of one !
Oh and when I am on a roll, the tipper in your pic is not covered properly, the sheet is way too high, and negates any effect it should ! NWH.........tippers, old school, stay well away from them !I think they are main contractors involved with the tram project.....
another thread entirely ?
Back to work Wednesday, the A9 becons, oh dear ill be chastised for going too slow....... it seems I cant please anyone , any of the time !oh and bikes should all have a tachograph thingy to record RLJ and riding on pavements etc
(tounge reasonably firmly in cheek ! )
as for ignored correspondence, watch this space, I have the addy of some serious FTA,RHA, and police Scotland people !
Scott
oops forgot to mention , the wheels/tyres on the tipper are filthy, its also an offence to permit , or cause a vehicle to travel on the highway while causing dirt, mud or muck....
I personally got said company of a site for not using wheel wash systems ! contact your local building contract dept of council, it actually works !Posted 11 years ago # -
Very much appreciated the "cyclists keep back" stickers as this Jewson's driver passed and cut across me where the road begins to narrow (bus lane on the right) just so he could get to the red light infront of me.
The stickers were very small, but plainly legible as he rolled past a foot away from me, causing me to slow down as he drifted across without indicating.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Yes you can clearly see them where you have circled on that photo. Very nice
Posted 11 years ago # -
You can also see he already has the brakes on as he passes and pulls across. He'd been behind me since the junction with Ardmillan Terrace but only managed to catch me where the road climbs slightly just before Shandon Place.
Posted 11 years ago # -
pointless and pretty terrifying when they come that close.
By contrast I had a very good interaction with an HGV today turning left from Ponton Street onto Fountainbridge. I stopped behind as he was indicating and waved to let him know I wasn't going to do anything daft - then a bit further on as I was able to use the cycle lane on the left I tentatively pulled up beside him at the lights as he wasn't indicating and he gave me the thumbs up to recognise he knew where I was, and would set off in front of him.
Posted 11 years ago #
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