CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
"Make all cyclists take a test, says sister of woman killed by truck"
(42 posts)-
Posted 11 years ago #
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She collided with a truck, or was hit by a truck? Should there be a distinction?
Usual knee-jerk reaction to a tragedy.Posted 11 years ago # -
I'm in full agreement here.
Due to the dangerous nature of this risky activity, all cyclists should be forced to study the Tibetan Book of the Dead to prepare themselves for their imminent bardo experience.
Tests should be conducted to establish the cyclist's understanding of the merits of various translations and associated commentaries.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Tested?? Does that include my 4 year old who is only 10 sleeps from his birthday - he likes to tell me!
Will it be a written paper? Mutliple choice? He's been riding without stableisers for 2 years now. Is there some tailored test for 2 year olds then?
Or should we encurage him to continue braking the law (by riding on pavements) until he's 18?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Seems a very odd reaction from the victims sister. If the article is to be taken at face value then it reads, to me, as though she blames her sister entirely for the tragedy.
With regards to tests, I do think that cyclists should be better equipped to ride on the roads. I have my cycling proficiency badge earned when I was 12 and arguably the more helpful qualification of a motorbike licence. These two qualifications however pale into insignificance when you employ a healthy dose of common sense and the fear of being dumped off your bike onto the roadPosted 11 years ago # -
In the Netherlands they have two major things going for them, firstly they have well established good cycling infrastructure, secondly they have a cycling knowledge and culture.
We have neither, consequently people go on their bikes with minimal road knowledge and poor perception of risks, if in any doubt about this refer to the "dangerous cycling" thread on this forum.
Everyday from the my perspective of a cyclist, bus passenger and driver I see examples of risky behaviour to themselves and other road users.
Whilst Iam not convinced that a test will address those issues, a good quality training course would be a far more effective way of addressing this.
There is a genuine issue here, that we as a cycling community should be taking seriously. We are continually demanding, observing, quite rightly that drivers need to do much better. we also cannot ignore or joke about the poor cycling we all see every day, from adults.
Posted 11 years ago # -
All drivers undergo rigorous training. What's their excuse?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Excpet she doesn't - the quotes attributed to the sister in the article don't mention testing for cyclists. It reads to me as though she is arguing for new cyclists to get some training - which seems reasonable. It's the journo that is calling for cyclist testing.
Posted 11 years ago # -
True enough. Drivers have to take a test and there are never any... Hang on... no... That's not right is it?
There does, definitely, need to be a bit more education, but it's principally necessary because our infrastructure, and the way cyclists are perceived by other road users, is so poor. Muppets are muppets no matter whether they are educated or tested or whatever, and so education of some who cycle poorly will make no difference (in the same way there are still drivers will break the rules).
The suggestion of 'testing' [edit: by the journo, for clarity] brings with it the implication of 'licences', which ties into DaveC's view above - at what age do we test kids to get a licence? And they're not allowed to cycle beforehand?
Slightly depressing that the sister suggests cyclists not wearing helmets is an example of them not understanding their own safety; while later it is mentioned that they don't know if she was wearing a helmet or not, and more than that.... there were no head injuries.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Agree more education is necessary, don't buy the infrastructure excuse. Cyclists need to understand how to use the road, when to and when not too etc. That IMO is not a infrastructure issue.
For the record the driving training/test is far from ideal. But we should be aiming higher.
Posted 11 years ago # -
@559 the point about infrastructure is that if you are separated from the dangerous machinery by good infrastructure then you don't need training in how to mitigate against the incompetence of the operators of said dangerous machinery.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"Agree more education is necessary, don't buy the infrastructure excuse."
Copenhagen and Amsterdam don't educate their cyclists. They do have lots of excellent infrastructure. And the drivers, because the majority also cycle (and for various other reasons) look out for cyclists whether on or off the infrastructure.
Posted 11 years ago # -
@fimm, regardless of how good the infrastructure gets, we will never be totally separated from other road users, even if only each other.
@WC my point is about education is that as Denmark and Netherlands have a strong cycling culture and we dont, we need to substitute training to compensate.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Any cyclist training requirement would quickly default to being a prime method to further normalise and internalise the UK's hyper-aggressive intolerant motorised road culture.
Just like helmets and hi viz already are.
Posted 11 years ago # -
There are many arguments, one is the infrastructure, fine. Another is the culture, I buy that too.
There is also a notion that a cyclist who uses the road should have an awareness, and at the very least an inclination of what the rules are.
What if they have no awareness, never read the highway code, and at the moment there is no legal requirement for them to do so. How can we then punish people for doing what they didn't know was wrong in the first place? How would those cyclists know that cycling on the pavement was wrong, or riding down a one way street isn't allowed for instance?
If your only prior interaction on any infrastructure was only as a pedestrian it would probably seem perfectly reasonable to do either of those things. Sometimes people need to be forced to learn.
Posted 11 years ago # -
The dutch do train and test their children on how to cycle.
It still doesn't make up for dangerous road design. http://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2013/10/04/on-training/
Posted 11 years ago # -
Ignorance is no defence in the law, otherwise I could pretend that I didnt know that murder was a crime
Posted 11 years ago # -
"How would those cyclists know that cycling on the pavement was wrong, or riding down a one way street isn't allowed for instance?"
Surely both would be fairly common knowledge? I'd venture at least 75% of people (and probably more) who cycle on the pavements know that they shouldn't be doing it but do it anyway.
Thing is, again in the cycling utopias across the water, the culture means that those things are tolerated. Actually, that suggests people think it's bad in the first place and put up with it. Rather it's 'normal' (though in the main they don't have to do it cos it's then backed up by infrastructure).
There was one street in Copenhagen that I commented on, with a cycle path at a diagonal right across a (busy) wide pavement. Turns out cyclists had been using the pavement as a desire line cut-through, but instead of demonising those cyclists the council thought "Hmmmm, there must be a reason cyclists want to go there instead of taking the streets around the block" and they put in a cycle lane... In a nutshell that has so many of the differences between the UK and Denmark as regards cyclists, pedestrians and political will.
But I do agree. Bring back proper cycling proficiency. It should be a requirement that it's taught in schools, rather than something that a few opt into.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"
Surely both would be fairly common knowledge? I'd venture at least 75% of people (and probably more) who cycle on the pavements know that they shouldn't be doing it but do it anyway
"Going back to my Livi experience, you just cycle on the pavement, go where you want to go. I had no notion of a 'shared use path' until many years into adulthood.
Pavements were always just there to be cycled on, why wouldn't you just do that when you came into Edinburgh too?Easy not to know some things when the rules are different in different places*.
*Not actually different, just could seem that way.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I'm fairly sure there is some kind of cycling proficiency taught in Dutch schools - but the whole culture there is so different with regard to cycling, I suspect they're taught rather different things than are taught here...
(My recollection of cycling proficiency is that it was done after school and I went to the lesson but forgot about the test!)
Posted 11 years ago # -
"Pavements were always just there to be cycled on, why wouldn't you just do that when you came into Edinburgh too?"
So even in Livi, when cycling on the pavement, you didn't know that that was wrong?
Posted 11 years ago # -
So even in Livi, when cycling on the pavement, you didn't know that that was wrong?
There was never a distinction, only now due to interwebs do I know that pretty much every path in Livingston has been designated as 'shared use'. There are no 'pavements' as such, never has been. If you go to Livi today, you can cycle where you want.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Sorry, I'm trying to egt this sorted in my head.
So, were the Livi paths shared use when you cycled on them?
You didn't know they were shared use?
You just cyckled on them anyway?
But above all else, did you know that (in general) cyucling on pavements was wrong but did it anyway?
(that's the crux of this - I think that at least 75% of pavement cyclists know they shouldn't be doing it, but I think the waters have got muddied here somewhat).
Posted 11 years ago # -
We've had police advising people to cycle on the pavement here in Dumfries...
Posted 11 years ago # -
Sorry, I'm trying to egt this sorted in my head.
OK
So, were the Livi paths shared use when you cycled on them?
Yes
You didn't know they were shared use?
No
You just cyckled on them anyway?
Yes, ever since I was knee high people just cycled on the path/pavement/shared use/whatever it's called, they still do now.
But above all else, did you know that (in general) cyucling on pavements was wrong but did it anyway?
No, why would I? It's a bit like telling me now that walking on them is wrong when you've watched people walk on them all your life. I've watched people cycling on them all my life, seems 'normal'.
OK, as previously discussed cycling rates low in Livingston, but of those that do, ALL of them cycle on the pavement, just how it is.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Dutch children get a lot of cycle training:
http://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2010/04/19/bicycle-training-in-the-netherlands/
Posted 11 years ago # -
"No, why would I? It's a bit like telling me now that walking on them is wrong when you've watched people walk on them all your life. I've watched people cycling on them all my life, seems 'normal'."
Right, sorted. So you're one of my 25%.
Posted 11 years ago # -
How can we then punish people for doing what they didn't know was wrong in the first place?
Oh I dunno, run them over with a massive tipper lorry?
Or, maybe, in this case the driver was in the wrong? We'll never know, because folk are too busy blaming the victim, who is dead and can't tell us otherwise. That's when they're not blaming "cyclists" in general. On a cycling forum too!
Posted 11 years ago # -
many of The pavements in livi are not beside the road type of pavements. WC did you not know that? They are footpaths perpendicular to roads or parallel to roads
You are meant to cycle on them
Today I was being trailed from Tollcross through to grass market by cyclist who I could sense wanted to undertake me.
At grass market, very congested. Big lorry at The fiddlers. I braked. Cyclist behind said 'don't stop' I replied Never cycle up the inside of a lorry. Now of course I do cycle up the inside of lorries if safe but this was not safe so I went for a more pithy imparting of wisdom, even, if the person didn't want it and even if you don't think it is wisdom.
Very sad about the actual story at the top and very bad journalism
Posted 11 years ago # -
"Maria’s heartbroken sister, Athena, told the Tribune this week that Maria’s bike was clipped by the lorry, before she was dragged under the vehicle. It is believed that the lorry driver may not have been aware of the accident immediately and had to be flagged down by members of the public."
Sounds like a classic SMIDSY. Except she's dead.
Posted 11 years ago #
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