CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

Civil disobedience?

(53 posts)

  1. fimm
    Member

    This blog post has got me thinking. Basically the author is arguing that the nice negotiating cyclists are not getting anywhere (or are getting somewhere inadequate very slowly) and that a bit of anger and disruption is needed.

    I'm not sure that even posting this sort of thing on the internet is a good idea. Perhaps this is the last post I will ever make, before They haul me off to explain myself...

    Has anyone here ever been involved in anything like that (not particularly cycling related?) Do people think it helps or hinders a cause?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  2. Dave
    Member

    I think the numbers would need to be huge because you're pitting yourself directly against "joe public" - it's not like holding a sit-down protest against a narrow target like a particular corporation.

    I fear the media would absolutely annihilate a sit down protest here, regardless of the number of attendees.

    Much more anger needed. London has a shot I think though.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  3. MeepMeep
    Member

    I was thinking something along these lines this morning as I was cycling through town: just how much is it going to take to tip the balance?

    I think a lot of us are angry, arguably angry enough to deliberately and intentionally wreak havoc with traffic flow (wait for the first trambles fatality?), but also speaking personally there's a lot of apathy too despite best efforts from the likes of ghostbike messages and events like PoP.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  4. Min
    Member

    It is the only way to ever get anything done, wherever you are in the world and always has been.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  5. SRD
    Moderator

  6. MeepMeep
    Member


    "We urge Mayor Boris Johnson to respond to the anger and frustration clearly felt by Londoners at the recent tragedies by agreeing to prioritise pedestrian and cycling safety above motor traffic flow..."

    Demand for material action is what is called for, not urging for responses. The inference with 'urge' is that we as cyclists don't really deserve changes in our favour but are going to ask in the vague hope we might get it. Given our vulnerabilities each time we mix it up with motorised traffic, we should be demanding our safety is prioritised - in a way that doesn't mean nothing if our demands are ignored. I don't know what this way is.

    Perhaps a missed opportunity for a hard-hitting soundbite building on the momentum of the current mood but then again perhaps I'm being pedantic.

    I can drive, I often choose not to in favour of cycling for health, wellbeing and social conscience reasons. These aren't reasons that I think would prompt the general population to ditch their motors.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  7. steveo
    Member

    I think you only need look at the success of critical mass in Edinburgh, where literally pairs of riders turn up, to show how Edinburgh cyclsits feel towards this kind of protest. Compare with PoP.

    Unfortunately, I suspect that even if every cyclist in Edinburgh started to cause the kind of traffic caos that would be needed to be noticed, nothing would change except the cyclsist causing the chaos would be placing them selves in danger not of the law but of "vigilante" drivers. And lets not underestimate how much chaos would be needed, most drivers in Edinburgh are programmed not to notice the kind of traffic jam which runs right round the bypass.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  8. Baldcyclist
    Member

    Not for me.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  9. cc
    Member

    Sounds like a good chance to link to this blog again -
    What do we want ? Gradual Change. When do we want it ? In due course

    Posted 11 years ago #
  10. fimm
    Member

    @cc yes indeed.
    Maybe a bit of the problem is that a lot of cyclists are terribly middle class and not really into standing in the middle of the road chanting "What do we want? Space for cycling! When do we want it? NOW!". We're all far too polite.

    But what would happen if, say, a quarter, or even a tenth, of the people at POP cycled down to Princes Street and just stopped?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  11. chdot
    Admin

    Just being discussed on Radio 4.

    http://www.npr.org/2012/09/20/161271977/a-modern-plague-and-the-heroes-who-tamed-it

    Not civil disobedience as such, but strenuous activism. Probably a bit middle class too.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  12. wingpig
    Member

    "But what would happen if, say, a quarter, or even a tenth, of the people at POP cycled down to Princes Street and just stopped?"

    Lothian Buses and their passengers would get quite annoyed, as they did during POP1. Taxi drivers would probably start trying to drive over the central thingby or round on the footway. Taxi drivers are naturally annoyed but bus passengers ought not to be deliberately delayed by cyclists. The police would get very annoyed. The council would probably not notice at the time and would get their information about the occurrence second-hand.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  13. Dave
    Member

    Papers and TV would spin it down to a tenth of the numbers, find some unsavoury association (in the past, it would have been communists. Not sure what's de jure?) and do a few interviews with grannies who missed their hospital appointments.

    I don't want to sound too down about it, but mass action really needs to be mass action.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  14. Kim
    Member

    Has Civil disobedience worked in Edinburgh? Humm, think there is a clear example of civil disobedience being rewarded here...

    Posted 11 years ago #
  15. Min
    Member

    Traffic chaos already happens every time another one of us is killed. That obviously isn't having any effect. Perhaps we need to think outside the box. I believe some angry women had some success earlier on in the year by dumping loads of dirty nappies outside the council chambers as a protest against rubbish non-collection.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  16. gembo
    Member

    When Jean Marie Le Pen, the now dead French fascist tried to visit Edinburgh there was an effective campaign to prevent this happening.

    lots of people of differing political opinion united to prevent him coming. he may have visited as a private citizen but he never made it as a politician.

    Civil disobedience works if you are trying to stop a bad thing happening. If you want to make good things happen you need lengthy campaigns that allow you to engage with the correct politicians

    I have a set of priorities. Securing better cycling infrastructure is high up in my personal wish list

    Preventing discrimination due to gender or skin colour is higher.

    These are just my own opinions, I am not trying to start a party or owt.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  17. minus six
    Member

    Effective civil disobedience requires serious numbers.

    Sad to say, but joe public in Scotland is not mature enough to see whats at stake without first being told what their opinion is, by the national media.

    And the national media is not clamouring to make an issue of endless road death carnage as anything other than incidental and accidental collateral damage.

    Change will eventually happen as a slow trickle down from what happens on the streets of London.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  18. Instography
    Member

    What do we want?

    Slow trickle down!

    When do we want it?

    Eventually!

    Posted 11 years ago #
  19. Instography
    Member

    You say:

    "Effective civil disobedience requires serious numbers."

    I give you Rosa Parks.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  20. Instography
    Member

    But mostly, civil disobedience requires civility and disobedience. Blocking traffic fits neither of these. Cyclist civil disobedience would need activist cyclists to demand segregated infrastructure by politely and disobediently using the only other segregated infrastructure available - the pavements.

    That would require many people to stop being, in practice, the staunchest advocates and enforcers of vehicular cycling. I don't expect to see that happening.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  21. minus six
    Member

    Cyclist civil disobedience would need activist cyclists to demand segregated infrastructure by politely and disobediently using the only other segregated infrastructure available - the pavements

    I agree that would be effective, if the general public started doing it in serious numbers.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  22. Dave
    Member

    You say:

    "Effective civil disobedience requires serious numbers."

    I give you Rosa Parks.

    Without meaning her the least disrespect, it's not like Rosa Parks was the first person to disobey the bus rules. I submit it was the organised action that followed which made the difference (from your link):

    "the black community persevered in their boycott. Some rode in carpools, while others traveled in black-operated cabs ... Most of the remainder of the 40,000 black commuters walked, some as far as 20 miles"

    If we got 40,000 people to sit in the street, day after day, then yeah, that would be serious numbers.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  23. Instography
    Member

    It wouldn't need the numbers to be all that serious. It would need Spokes, PoP, CTC, Sustrans and similar organisations to publicly state that they were no longer going to be a party to cyclists' deaths by condemning the reasonable use of pavements as an alternative to the roads.

    They could say that since Government had systematically failed, refused, to make adequate provision for cyclists' safety on roads, and had systematically failed to enforce the law even in situations where the death of cyclists was plainly the fault of motorists, that they were no longer going to condemn people who chose to cycle on pavements provided they did so with consideration for pedestrians.

    They could say that they were going to recommend to cyclists that in circumstances where they felt that the road was too dangerous they should mount the pavement to get past potentially dangerous situations. But that they should do so carefully, cycling at walking pace and giving way to pedestrians.

    They could do this while still recognising that the pavement was designed for pedestrians and that cyclists using the pavement creates the potential for conflict but that cyclist / pedestrian conflict was much less likely to be deadly than the current situation of conflict between vehicles and bicycles.

    They could say that they recognise that pavement cycling is illegal and that cyclists might be fined. They could advise cyclists receiving fixed penalty notices to refuse to pay them and take the cases to court. I suspect they'll never get there (because they won't get past the public interest test in taking them to court) but if they do, the cyclists would be supported financially and defended, provided their actions were reasonable (see above).

    They could tell people who wanted to cycle but who were afraid of the road to cycle on the pavement.

    That would certainly make the point publicly and be noticed by the press and politicians. It would be both civil and disobedient and to the extent that reasonable cyclists did it - cycled on the pavements in situations that would be dangerous - it would be effective at least in keeping some cyclists safer than they would be on the roads. It would need one case - just one where a jury refused to convict a cyclist for riding on the pavement as an act of self-defence.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  24. Instography
    Member

    Indeed, Rosa Parks wasn't the first but she was the tipping point, the straw, the catalyst. But you're right, it needs leadership, organisation and support. The NAACP was critical in organising the protests.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  25. steveo
    Member

    Arguably she was also the sympathetic face to hang the movement off. Tragically we've had a couple of sympathetic people killed recently and it hasn't made a jot of difference.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  26. chdot
    Admin

    @Instography

    I look forward to "a jury refused to convict a cyclist for riding on the pavement as an act of self-defence"

    It may well happen - though of course (as you say) such cases might not get to court.

    The problems with your suggestions are that the cycling organisations (unlike the NAACP) won't (individually or collectively) 'rock the boat' - see Nice Way Code and all the 'don't complain (in public) about the hand that feeds'.

    Spokes is an exception to that of course, but I don't think it is likely to advocate much cycling on pavements - even "carefully, cycling at walking pace and giving way to pedestrians".

    Though if there was any obvious way of cycling through Haymarket more safely that was illegal, Spokes might well be in favour as it's resulting in more problems than anything else since Spokes started 36 years ago.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  27. Instography
    Member

    Yeah, I agree. No one will rock the boat so nothing will happen.

    They could suggest that people stop their bikes in the middle of the road, get off and carefully lift their bike over the tram rails, before getting back on and continuing cycling. Not sure if that would be illegal.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  28. steveo
    Member

    Just as likely to get you run over as falling off though.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  29. fimm
    Member

    Actually, Instography, I like that idea. Not illegal, but inconvenincing others, but not too much.

    Civil disobedience has to inconvienince others a bit, I guess, otherwise the point is not made?

    WRT to Kim's point above (that the illegal parking by vans has effectively forced the cycle lane to be reduced to legitimise what is happening anyway) - well the "civil disobedience" response could be to start causing problems to the van. Put stickers on it("Hua Xing supermaket are fat and lazy", "Hua Xing supermarket kills cyclists") tie things on it, I dunno, the sillier and more creative the better. Nothing to damage the van, just an indication that no, it is not OK to leave it there, and if the law on parking is not going to be enforced then people are going to take the law into their own hands.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  30. Instography
    Member

    Come to think of it, boats are never rocked by the people in them. They might get wet. It's the people outside the boat who do the rocking - they're already wet and at risk of drowning.

    Posted 11 years ago #

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