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Rubbish Driving AND Cycling (aka cyclist almost squashed)

(82 posts)
  • Started 11 years ago by Wilmington's Cow
  • Latest reply from Murun Buchstansangur

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  1. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    "What if he had been walking and wanted to cross the road? Would he have had to wait until such time as there were no motor vehicles just in case one of them wanted to turn without indicating? Because that sort of thing happens very frequently. Is the pedestrian an idiot for trying to cross the road without waiting for all the motorists to drive away or come to a halt?"

    Well when I'm crossing a road I stop at the side, check left and right, and cross when safe to do so (and probably wouldn't be doing so at a junction). In much the same way on a bike I'm looking ahead and left and right and judging when it is safe to undertake a particular manouevre, which wouldn't include passing a truck on the left just before a junction (whether indicating or not).

    Maybe I'm more risk averse than most on here.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  2. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    "So, yes, the cyclist has the right to do what he did, and in ideal world he would come to no grief in doing so, so he is not "in the wrong". However, he should also be aware that he is operating within the confines of an imperfect system alongside hundreds of other imperfect beings. Accidents/incidents do happen, but it's almost always better when they don't happen to you."

    Can all of my posts be deleted and just replaced with this?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  3. Roibeard
    Member

    @WC - We've no disagreement on the specifics of this case, I just didn't think the new tack ("what if the cyclist hadn't...") is a particularly helpful one in a general sense.

    I'd like to see the burden being placed on those with physics on their side, and roads designed to minimise the risk presented by errors in exercising that responsibility, rather than entertaining the "it's grand, as long as you keep your wits about you" discussion.

    I suspect we agree, it's just a matter of how we cycle in the "now", whilst anticipating and campaigning for the "then" - I'd be concerned that your "now" argument might be used hinder progress on the "then", if taken out of context.

    Robert

    Posted 11 years ago #

  4. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    "I suspect we agree, it's just a matter of how we cycle in the "now", whilst anticipating and campaigning for the "then" - I'd be concerned that your "now" argument might be used hinder progress on the "then", if taken out of context."

    Violent agreement you could say.

    Of course there are those who worry that campaigning for segregated infrastructure means we'll be banned from the roads thus actually hindering progress.... ;)

    The 'what if' argument was more just in that specific instance where the cyclist almost got flattened. The 'what if' was essentially my positioning behind where it was irritating having to wait for a non-indicating truck to complete the turn, but not life-threatening. But I see where you're coming from in the wider context - as long as we can all continue cycling without being squished I'll be happy.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  5. Dave
    Member

    My 2p: a road has been constructed with a lane for cycling and a lane for driving. Can it be even remotely surprising that people will cycle along in an cycle lane?

    It's all very well saying "ah, you should sometimes not cycle along in the empty cycle lane if certain conditions apply: particular vehicles are in particular locations, certain road features are a given distance away, and so on" but for better or worse, that's not how we've evolved to behave.

    Incidentally, I agree completely and I'd like to think that I'd have held back there. But... empty cycle lanes are a massive subconscious cue. If we're going to build them, we can't really blame people for paying less attention to what's going on outside the lane. For all we know, that rider might have held back 99 times out of a hundred, but just didn't make the decision this time.

    Or they could be MENTAL, of course...

    Posted 11 years ago #

  6. Darkerside
    Member

    Hurrah for interesting, rational and reasoned debate!

    I can't see the video at work, so thoughts below based on the descriptions.

    I cycle (and drive) on the assumption that everyone else will make mistakes. I don't pull out in front of indicating cars until they've slowed to an absolute crawl, I don't sit alongside other vehicles on motorways and I don't filter near junctions (this is easy in Glasgow as we have so few cycle lanes).

    As CharleThePar elegantly put, this 'add[s] minutes to your journey and years to your life.'

    This doesn't alter the fact that the driver is at fault.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  7. Min
    Member

    Question -

    How many people on here always give way to drivers waiting to pull out of junction or roundabouts? And also to drivers waiting to turn right at a junction you are crossing?

    These are both situations under which it is extremely common for motorists to try and drive over you and which your life could probably be extended by a great many years for the sake of a few minutes each journey.

    We know it to be true and can predict it at every junction.

    So how many people give way?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  8. Cyclingmollie
    Member

    Min: "So how many people give way?"

    Not me. That's my point really. The driver didn't realise he'd done something dangerous and illegal and would be difficult to re-educate. The cyclist doesn't know he's done something dangerous but perfectly legal. He will be difficult to re-educate. Who would you prioritise with a safety message? I personally would focus on cyclists which makes me sound like Boris. Hmmm. Edit: ...and bl***y Jeremy Vine.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  9. Nelly
    Member

    "How many people on here always give way to drivers waiting to pull out of junction or roundabouts? And also to drivers waiting to turn right at a junction you are crossing"

    I dont as a rule, but in certain circumstances / light and weather conditions I will try to get eye contact, and if that hasnt happened I may slow down - to be honest, its a daily and subconscious thing. None of that will stop me having a pop at any idiot driver who attempts said maneouvers.

    I totally get what you are saying, and agree that in all these circumstances one would be 'in the right' - but as mentioned a few times in this thread, we live in an imperfect world, populated by imperfect (and occasionally stupid) people driving much bigger machines - and (in my own opinion) being in the right is no substitute for being in one piece.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  10. Min
    Member

    Problem is you can ALWAYS predict that drivers are going to do something stupid. ALWAYS. This particular case is only one way in which drivers can kill you. The only logical conclusion to it all is to ban cycling for being too dangerous.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  11. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    "The only logical conclusion to it all is to ban cycling for being too dangerous."

    No it's not.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  12. Morningsider
    Member

    Urban cycling is really just a series of rapid fire decisions on how best to act in the current circumstances. Cyclists' senses are effectively overwhelmed as we move around and it is easy to miss something that might be important. I suppose experience teaches us to recognise what is important and what is probably extraneous - but it is imperfect and I certainly still find myself thinking "probably shouldn't have done that" from time to time.

    Should the cyclist have held back - tough call. I probably would have - experience tells me that scaffolding lorries are amongst the worst driven vehicles on the road. However, the cyclist must have viewed things differently.

    Reminds me of a large building site I visited. A sign at all entrances said "Person responsible for safety on this site" - above a mirror. We are all, in some way, responsible for the safety of all road users around us - including ourselves.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  13. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    A lot of it is about personal risk perception. I've seen far more people turn into juntions without indicating, than pull out of them without looking, therefore I take more care around vehicles such as in the video.

    I also posted the video upthread of the driver overtaking right into my face. Now that 'can' happen, and did happen, but is rather rare, so I don't ride along stopping every time more than one car is coming the other way in case one tries to overtake.

    We're taking matters to extremes, when simply in the situation above, having just set off from some lights, with a junction 10 yards further on on the left, and a truck with 'blind spots' that has just been in the cycle lane, and virtually no time to lose by hanging back... I'd have hung back.

    There are situations where I will go up the left of trucks. Just that that particular instance wasn't one of them for the reasons I've enumerated muchos times.

    On that same stretch I've had car doors opened on me into the cycle lane. I could therefore say cycling is too dangeours and stop. Or I could be aware that it could happen at any time, keep an eye on those doors, and for any movement from within, and temper my speed if there's a big queue of stationary traffic. It's a response to a specific threat, in the same way that me hanging back from a truck in the above cuircumstances is a response to a specific threat. It does nothing to impede me really, and makes my everyday cycling experience feel a little safer. That's all.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  14. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Thinking on it there are loads of ways in which I adapt all the time.

    I've had pedestrians walk out without looking while the red man is on so many times, if I see people waiting to cross I move slightly further right into the road just in case. I wouldn't be 'wrong' to stay left, and if I hit someone stepping out it would be their fault; but why not adapt so that if they step out we both don't end up on the deck? That's all I'm saying, why wouldn't I take measures that might mean I don't get hurt?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  15. steveo
    Member

    Problem is you can ALWAYS predict that drivers are going to do something stupid.

    IF that were the case there would many less deaths on the road. one can assume that a road user may do something stupid but thats not the same thing and either way can be mitigated to a degree by responding to the threat.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  16. cosmok
    Member

    Can't see the video, but I'm also in the camp of people who would have stayed back until it was crystal clear what was going on. Are we saying that the lorry driver, whose profession is driving, so it's fair to expect a higher standard here, forgot to indicate? In the scheme of dangerous driving its not in the same league as speeding, talking on the phone or running a red light, although it could have resulted in the loss of life all the same. Maybe he did check his mirrors but couldn't see the bike.

    Someone mentioned the issue of a pedestrian crossing and what if they got hit. Surely they'd have been in wrong as they're crossing on a red man and it's up to them to make sure there's nothing turning, regardless of whether or not it's indicating?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  17. Min
    Member

    Most junctions do not have pedestrian crossings and therefore do not have red men. The pedestrian is relying on drivers indicating, knowing full well that many do not.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  18. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Yep, though to muddy the waters this particular junction has a pedestrian crossing ten yards further up... ;)

    Posted 11 years ago #

  19. ianfieldhouse
    Member

    …I've seen far more people turn into juntions without indicating, than pull out of them without looking…

    I must just be unlucky as I would say on average 1-2 people on every one of my daily commutes pulls up to a junction in a manner that (to me) appears like they are going to just pile on straight out into the flow of traffic only to stop - usually 2-3 feet past the give way line. Try cycling down Colinton Road past Watson's of an evening for example! I can't remember the last time someone pulled into a junction ahead of me without indicating. Not saying it doesn't happen frequently, just that it isn't on my radar as something particularly common to me.

    My take on the video is that I think I probably wouldn't have gone up the inside of the truck, but can't say for sure that I would never do it. As for that stretch of road, I'd prefer to cycle along one of the parallel side streets.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  20. wingpig
    Member

    Finally uploaded my cyclist-going-inside-long-left-turning-truck from last month:

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Player

    Posted 11 years ago #

  21. algo
    Member

    @wingpig - it'd be nice to think that cyclist might see that video some day and learn from your riding in exactly the same bit of road... not giving way to pedestrian was pretty rude, riding right in the door zone made me feel nervous, and then that lorry - I don't think there can be much debate about that being pretty much suicidal.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  22. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    I'm not entirely sure I agree with wingpig's original description of this (ie that the lorry was indicating throughout) - it seems to me he only indicated when the cyclist was level with the rear of his trailer. Still, the general positioning of the truck should have given some warning signals to the cyclist. Definitely in the right thread (rubbish driving AND cycling).

    Posted 11 years ago #

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