CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".
IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 16years old!
Well done to ALL posters
It soon became useful and entertaining. There are regular posters, people who add useful info occasionally and plenty more who drop by to watch. That's fine. If you want to add news/comments it's easy to register and become a member.
RULES No personal insults. No swearing.
"
On a recent trip to Hamburg I checked out their cycling facilities and compared them with ours. I found that shared spaces are common and seemed to work well on the unusually wide pavements of that city. On one of the main thoroughfares, the Jungfernstieg, cyclists were reasonably slow and pedestrians walked across the cycle space unconcerned.
"
"unusually wide pavements of that city"
Yep….
"the pedestrians seem to know their rights"
Interesting use of the passive voice.
Pedestrians here do NOT know their rights, and are used to them being trampled on.
"We will continue to monitor these spaces and hope and expect that the vast majority of cyclists will slow down and act courteously, while pedestrians will politely accept a reasonable amount of authorised “transgression” on to their space from cyclists, especially if it helps reduce traffic and air pollution."
My bold, but not inverted commas.
"In Copenhagen it is a different story, with cyclists separated from pedestrians on special wide kerbs between the pavement and the road. This is necessary simply because of the greater numbers of cyclists there."
Chicken or egg?
Are there some cities with Mediaeval-Georgian-Victorian centres (like Edinburgh) with roads and pavements of a similar width that we should be sending our Councillors to for fact-finding missions?
With a few exceptions, most of the thoroughfares of central Edinburgh pre-date the car by tens if not hundreds of years.
"cyclists were reasonably slow "
This is not the case in the UK. Most are in a hurry, impatient, and rude when challenged, and this goes for motorists, cyclists and pedestrians alike!
At a full council debate on Thursday we even celebrated the fact that in Edinburgh 35 per cent of all journeys are on foot
...and so we're happy to reduce the space dedicated to pedestrians through the use of shared paths?
forget about the shared paths....
"....the fact that in Edinburgh 35 per cent of all journeys are on foot,..."
Gobsmacked...
"
"cyclists were reasonably slow "
This is not the case in the UK.
"
Doesn't seem to be the case in Livi, both modes seem to get on without conflict.
Cyclists have to go at walking speed while drivers can go as fast as they can manage without any annoying cyclists in the way. Fits well with Edinburgh, Model Driving City.
*Thumbs up*
I do actually try not to be negative about coverage like this, but there's just a hint in some of the things that Jim Orr says that effectively is exactly as Min has said above, as well as a sideways dig at lycra clad cyclists who may have the temerity to want to move between places quickly, and a suggestion that overnight we can become like those Scandis and Germans (when they've had years of adapting to that way of riding and walking, as well as a strict liability regime which (shock horror, you don't read this in the media coverage of it) places the onus of responsibility on the cyclists in interactions with pedestrians.
I'm avoiding the comments on the story, and I'm just a little disappointed in Jim Orr. Misplaced good intentions really.
@Baldcyclist - what are the widths of pavements, and numbers of pedestrians and cyclists, in Livingston like in relation to central Edinburgh where the latest shared use provisions have been placed? (just wondering if there are any major differences that might actually fuel the good behaviour, or just get to the bottom of just why Livi is so good for cyclists and pedestrians compared to Edinburgh).
and on top of it all, we've got spokes calling me a 'cop out' for refusing to support any of their 'solutions' to this mess.
"we've got spokes calling me a 'cop out' "
Tell us more!!
Chicken or egg?
Big time. The Lycra digs are basically chicken-egg too. Most non-Lycra folk are too frightened to use the roads in their current state. Build the infra, and normal people will come. Note: the 'shared use' at the bottom of the Mound most certainly does not count.
A good blog post from The Ranty Highwayman on this:
http://therantyhighwayman.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/a-bicycle-is-vehicle-capable-of-speed.html
Even in my relatively slow-moving incarnation as a Brompton rider I pick roads over shared use areas because I'd rather go at speed and deal with cars than have to stop-start all the time because of pedestrians, dogs, etc.
OK, Livi. The paths vary in width, the main paths are similar in width to say the NEPN, some are wider. Once you get off of the main arteries, the paths can be 2m wide or less, so not very wide.
Regards to density, in Livingston there are a few areas around the town centre where the paths are well used, people seem to naturally cycle slower there.
In Edinburgh, there are a few streets in the city centre which are very dense with pedestrians. Once you get a few blocks away from the centre, they are pretty empty.
Edinburgh is in a grid system, Livingston is not.
Edinburgh has a lot of 'arteries' which allow cycling to / from the contre. These seem to function pretty well. Even the NEPN is pretty devoid of peds at peak commuting times. So even as close as Haymarket , the pavements are practically empty.
Even within the grid system, some pavements are well used where one street away is practically empty. Seems there is some cycle infa / shared paths just waiting to be implemented there...
Examples, Morrison St busy, Torphichen St, devoid of peds.
George St busy, Queen St devoid of peds
You just need to choose which streets to share. The one advantage of a grid system is that you can easily (with money and will) create directions of flow, and put different modes on different streets.
But if you start prescribing where people can cycle you'll end up with the arguments that the George St. facility announcement caused.
Can't cycle on Princes St. you need to use Queens St. Can't ride down Lothian Road you need to use ???
Bridges? Leith Road Walk, Leith Street, Queensferry St? Marchmont?
There are probably plenty places where shared use might be okay but they're a long way from the city centre. The Gyle area is the only one which immediately springs to mind and even then round the bus stops these pavements can get busy.
Edinburgh is in a grid system
Apart from the Georgian parts, it's more like patches of non-regular grids and intermediary triangles, joined together at jaunty angles, with a variety of amusing 3, 4 and 5-way junctions.
Also the old nugget of cycle paths; ceding priority at every drive way. This is not a factor in Livi where you never cross a road but would be a serious pita in Edinburgh, its annoying enough walking.
Even the NEPN is pretty devoid of peds at peak commuting times.
Not in my experience. Lots of children being escorted to school in the mornings in the Water of Leith/Trinity/Inverleith/Canonmills areas of NEPN.
"Edinburgh has always been a city of walkers and we want to support that. As always, it is simply a matter of getting the balance right."
That is, ensuring that motorists are inconvenienced as little as possible, right Cllr Orr?
Min has it on the nail.
"cyclists were reasonably slow "
This is not the case in the UK. Most are in a hurry, impatient, and rude when challenged…
Maybe so. But in the UK's city environments this is a learned response, not a desire.
"Even the NEPN is pretty devoid of peds at peak commuting times."
Not in my experience. Lots of children being escorted to school in the mornings in the Water of Leith/Trinity/Inverleith/Canonmills areas of NEPN.
I haven't done it for a few weeks, but I was keeping a regular count of the different modes on the canal and NEPN on the way into work.
Generally it would be ~5 pedestrians / 20-30 riders on the canal between the bypass and Harrison Park. On NEPN I'd typically count < 20 pedestrians between Haymarket and the shore, and ~60 riders.
The canal is busier in the morning than the evening for peds, NEPN the converse.
(Edited to add: those are one-way bike counts but two-way ped counts, so the number of riders is potentially double if you'd done a static count)
Its also a pretty narrow window on which to count anything, presuming you arrive at your office at pretty much the same time every day.
@steveo the time I leave the house varies by no more than 45 minutes. But peak commuting time is what was being talked about, and that's when I'm commuting at least.
Someone else will have to do a count outside that time if they want to talk about that. It's quite good mental exercise...
I'd count at the top of Lothian Road, but I think I'd run out of fingers for pedestrians.
Incidentally, the bottom of Ardmillan Terrace has had one of these cut-across lanes for years. I only realised relatively recently when I experimented with going up the one way to the junction directly and realised I could mount up and ride off that way.
Nobody seems to have died yet? Perhaps because it's also a very quiet spot?
@dave granted, though are we talking exclusively peak commuting time? Because I don't think we'll have bus Lane style times on these shared paths. I realise we're not making policy decisions here but a random selection of days in a <60 minute window isn't exactly definitive.
Re the Ardmillan cut through, I've never seen any one actually use it... But since we're on sweeping statements, 10m further down and Gorgie is one of the busiest streets in the city (out side of the very centre)
I'm assuming 'peak commuting time' is the hour or so before 9am? (If we assume many folk in the city are workung classic '9 to 5' office hours...
NEPN pretty busy from 8 'till 9am, but it depends where. Further out west it's pretty quiet.
"....the fact that in Edinburgh 35 per cent of all journeys are on foot,..."
I can well believe that. I'd say 90% of my journeys are on foot (and have been for as long as I've been in Edinburgh). I walk to work (too short a distance to bother with cycling), I used to walk to Uni, and walked pretty much everywhere back then. I'd say a lot of my neighbours are pretty similar - I see only a few getting in their cars to go to work.
The 35% figure just shows what an untapped "market" there is for cycling, if only CEC would put in the appropriate infrastructure. It also shows the extent to which a lot of people are being inconvenienced to the benefit of the motoring few.
Of course, pretty much all journeys involve an element of pedestrianisation, so everybody wins...
sorry if this has already been posted, but a sensible piece here from Living Streets, which I guess is what Jim is responding to:
http://www.livingstreets.org.uk/re-designing-edinburgh-to-benefit-pedestrians-and-cycling
I particularly appreciate Keith noting that 'grassroots' campaigns are on his side on this.
You must log in to post.
Cycling in Edinburgh Flickr group
Video embedded using Easy Video Embed plugin
posts