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"5. He is an inexperienced cyclist and may actually be one of those people that are too scared to cycle along Easter Road."
Well yes, which is why his bluster (especially as this all started when he was responding to KD after she had left the chamber to go to a meeting) and 'hiding behind' a civil servant is pretty objectionable.
He must know she's not going to let this rest.
I have only seen a Green party politician use a taxi once. I was walking to the doctor's with my son, and a prominent Green councillor arrived in a taxi, together with his partner and newborn child, presumably for checkup or immunisation.
I'm presuming this family transportation was not at the taxpayer's expense and in my opinion seems a fair use of a taxi.
Oh and Easter Road can certainly be intimidating to cycle on. Mainly due to all the junctions, the fact it is narrow, and the traffic islands. Plus the fact that great big HGVs trundle to and from the docks on occasion, and it is a regular bus route.
Otherwise, vehicle speeds are generally low due to congestion (not true at night) and plentiful pedestrian crossings at the top end holding up the motors make it easier to turn into/out of a junction than would otherwise be the case.
First year I checked for Mr Harvie was 2005 where we find:
Patrick Harvie Members Travel
2 Patrick Harvie Members Travel Taxi Travel £27.60
3 Patrick Harvie Members Travel Taxi Travel £13.35
5 Patrick Harvie Members Travel Taxi Travel £8.59
7 Patrick Harvie Members Travel Taxi Travel £18.90
8 Patrick Harvie Members Travel Taxi Travel £36.12
9 Patrick Harvie Members Travel Taxi Travel £13.40
12 Patrick Harvie Members Travel Taxi Travel £32.15
http://mspallowances.scottish.parliament.uk/Default.aspx?Option=Switch
Last year he had improved but we still find:
6 Patrick Harvie Members Travel Provision Members Taxi £7.00
23 Patrick Harvie Members Travel Provision Members Taxi £6.60
I'm not saying Mr Harvie is a bad guy, I usually agree with him, but I don't understand why Greens think taxis are acceptable.
I've never got a taxi on my own, only been in one a handful of times in my life and haven't been in one at all for more than 20 years. I don't know how far £6.60 would take you but I don't see why he would use that rather than get a bike. Some bikes even fold up these days to make it easier to take them on the train.
@wfb, for the current year all I can find regarding travel expenses for both Green MSPs is some rail fares for Patrick Harvie, and his Glasgow bus pass. Alison Johnstone has made no transport claims, presumably she cycles or walks to work.
Rather modest claims, methinks.
Oh and if you search that site for the expenses of Keith Brown MSP, for the current year alone he has made 100 claims for motor mileage expenses. These are mostly quite modest and average £3.60 each, but his travel expenditure is rather less modest than Patrick Harvie's. Presumably these are also separate from ministerial chauffeur driven mileages, which must be under a different budget.
For balance if you look at Kezia Dugdale she has claimed for 3 rail tickets this year so far. Presumably as she is not confident to cycle to work up Easter Road she walks instead.
"I don't understand why Greens think taxis are acceptable."
I expect that the thinking is that it's best (greenwise) if you don't have a car (env cost of manufacture etc, plus more likely to use). The use of taxis seems pretty light for an MSP.
And I already said I'm not calling him a bad guy but he has charged us for taxis and my truthfulness on that had been challenged.
I found out how to get details on each charge. He did this one:
07/03/2008 CENTRAL STATION GLASGOW TO HYNDLAND SECONDARY SCHOOL GLASGOW 0 £4.60
Now it would be hard for the taxi to get him much closer to the school than the train as the station is just across the road. It could be that he wasn't on his own and a taxi was cheaper but I still think it's an odd green choice. If I didn't have a bike I'd be happy to walk, it's 2.6 miles according to Google. I do have a bike and it's probably faster than waiting for the train.
So, wfb, where do you think Keith Brown was driving to 100 times this financial year* for £3.60 a pop?**
* - 2013/14, began April 2013.
** - £0.45 per mile, so 8 miles per claim. Some claims were a bit higher, the highest being £18.00.
I have no idea where Mr Brown went, you can find out if you like, as I said my truthfulness on Mr Harvie had been challenged. It seems that he has charged us for taxis.
I find this strange. To my knowledge he has no physical impediment which prevents him from making a greener choice and yet he doesn't do that. People in this group who are not elected to high office on an environmental ticket do manage to travel to their work by bike. Why does Mr Harvie not lead by example on this? I don't get it. If you see him I'd be grateful if you could ask.
There are even bike racks outside the parliament building but unfortunately you can still see the parliament building behind them.
Oh and wfb, as Keith Brown was not an MSP in 2005-06, it's not possible to compare like for like expenses claims with the ones for Patrick Harvie you are focussing on. However in 2007, the newly elected MSP made some truly whopping travel expenses claims! I cannot quite believe them myself.* Here's just the first page from his charge sheet for that year:
1 Keith Brown Members Travel Motor Mileage £98.60
2 Keith Brown Members Travel Motor Mileage £476.65
3 Keith Brown Members Travel Motor Mileage £547.18
4 Keith Brown Members Travel Motor Mileage £336.69
5 Keith Brown Members Travel Motor Mileage £416.58
6 Keith Brown Members Travel Motor Mileage £580.22
7 Keith Brown Members Travel Motor Mileage £562.48
8 Keith Brown Members Travel Motor Mileage £46.34
9 Keith Brown Members Travel Motor Mileage £20.21
10 Keith Brown Members Travel Motor Mileage £72.48
He also charged the taxpayer for hotels, taxis and car parking. I know Keith has never claimed to be green, but it is heartening to see he's not being quite so extravagant in his mileage claims this year. I presume that's because he lets the ministerial limo take the strain these days.
* - Presumably the pence per mile allowed in 2007 was lower than in 2013, but even at today's rates the mileages are quite impressive. I'm assuming these are monthly aggregated claims. A lot of driving in the summer, perchance?
I don't understand what's wrong with occasional taxi use? I don't normally, but would with a sick child, my elderly mother-in-law or sometimes myself when I'm travelling for work especially if I have to transport heavy loads, so I don't see what's wrong with an MSP using one occasionally and for non-exorbitant claims.
@wfb I find it strange that you're out to spot such a low level of hypocrisy in Patrick Harvie. It's impossible to live on this planet without making some impact on it - the challenge for us all is to reduce it.
If you are worried about greenhouse gases, then surely a car journey from Edinburgh to Glasgow is worse than a train journey plus short taxi ride. If you are worried about cost to the taxpayer, think about the 45mins-1hr cost to the taxpayer in lost time if the MSP were walk 2.6 miles.
Another cost to be considered is the injury or loss of life of said MSP if they are a less confident cyclist trying to navigate the city centre of Glasgow. Frankly even I would think twice before taking on the Glasgow one way system on a bike, with a US style grid system that encourages speeding along long straights, numerous badly designed junctions and motorway slip roads feeding fast moving traffic in at odd angles in unexpected places.
Crow,
Tu quoque isn't a great way to defend a Green MSP.
SRD,
For all of them I sometimes find the small claims the oddest but I suppose they add up. In the case of taxis it means they didn't go far so why not walk or use a bike?
amir,
Check back, I was challenged on the veracity of something. What would you do if someone did that to you?
Again, I'm not calling Mr Harvie the Destroyer of Worlds but I continue to find this odd. Caroline Lucas seems to do better.
Ohhhh jeez louise: http://www.morhamburn.com/wp-content/uploads/Glasgow-Charge-Points.pdf
Crow,
Errrr… right back at ya. I find Edinburgh's random twists and turns and two level approach behind the castle odd and Glasgow's grid easy. Everybody is going in the same direction, use what ever side of the street is best for the next junction you are going to turn at.
Grids tend not to have odd angles.
Most of the off ramps have lights. I can think of a few which don't. One in Townhead but it has 90º curve so nobody goes fast round there and one in Port Dundas but there is a traffic light within a couple of hundred metres and I don't think you would take a bike on that section as you would have to be going to/from the motorway. Off ramps from the outside lane was a strange choice. Even in a car they're not great.
Castle St north bound is bad because both lanes can turn left into what's left of Glebe St. You can dodge it by going east on Duke St then north on Cumbernauld Rd.
Central Station to Hyndland is easy. You could even use the path by the Clyde for some of it… not the bit that fell in the river of course. I don't because it's a cycle path so the surface stinks and it puts you in odd places at junctions.
wfb, what you said was: "As far as I can tell from his expenses even Patrick Harvie uses taxis from Waverly."
Morningsider then replied: "WFB - think you might be wrong about that. I can't find any record of Patrick Harvie using a taxi to travel between Waverley and the Parliament (at taxpayers expense anyway). You can check this online at:
http://mspallowances.scottish.parliament.uk/Default.aspx"
You still have not backed your assertion with any evidence. You did find some expenses claims from 9 years ago related to taxi usage in Glasgow, plus two from last year. As far as I'm aware, Waverley is in Edinburgh, and is less than 2.6 miles from Holyrood.
As for my reply, I was not defending the use of taxis per se, though I do occasionally use them myself (usually when travelling with others).
Rather I was seeking to demonstrate that the odd taxi journey is the least of our worries when it comes to MSPs travel habits. Keith Brown's fondness for motoring* is far more problematic, in my opinion.
* - Presumably his mileages are much more modest since he became a minister in 2009, because the chauffeur driven limo has taken over.
If anyone's interested I tracked down some old information on Scottish minisers' expenses for 2007-2011.
According to this Mike Russell seems fond of hotels, and Stewart Stevenson travelled a lot (well he was the Transport minister).
Can't find much information for the past two years.
@wfb " In the case of taxis it means they didn't go far so why not walk or use a bike?"
Given that these are occasional use, I suspect that closer investigation would explain - a rainstorm, a cold, a twisted ankle, a travelling companion etc. If it were a regular pattern, then yes, we could say 'consider an alternative', but the fact that it is infrequent suggests to me that other factors are likely to have been a factor.
**I can't find anyone claiming that PH has never used/claimed a taxi.
Crow…
Click the details from his very first taxi claim in 2005,
2 Patrick Harvie Members Travel Taxi Travel £27.60.
On the photocopy of the claim form it says: Waverley - Potterow.
Looks like he does use taxis from Waverley unless he means Waverley ice cream wafers.
Actually it says Waverley Stantion. I've been there and Waverley is bigger than an individual stanchion no matter how you spell it. Do you need me to go through the rest and find other taxis from Waverley?
And I continue to find it odd that I wasn't able to find a whole heap of evidence for him using a bike. The most famous cycling MPs in the UK might actually all be Tories… albeit not necessarily famous for the best of reasons.
Well done for not defending taxis.
It was interesting to read the ministerial car journeys log.
It's official: Keith Brown lied when he claimed to have arrived by train at work on the day of the Stop Climate Chaos protest on 11 January 2012. He even took the limo back from work.
From the ministerial car journeys information on Keith Brown:
11-Jan-12
Personal Address Parliament
Parliament Personal Address
You can find all kinds of interesting stuff in their claims. My former MSP was obsessed with bus travel. She never used one but she never stopped talking about them.
WFB - I wasn't having a dig at you, there just doesn't seem to be any evidence of Patrick Harvie using taxis to travel between the Waverley and Parliament, which is common criticism levelled at MSPs. I'm not sure there is anything fundamentally wrong with using a taxi once every few years from Edinburgh's main railway station.
Personally, I don't really care about the personal habits of politicians. They could all go to work on nuclear powered space hoppers for all I care. I am concerned about the policies they pursue though and I think the current (and past) administrations have fallen far short on cycling.
I know it's a pie in the sky suggestion but I'd like to see elected officials be required to travel a set proportion of their mileage using a variety of methods - walk, cycle, bus, train, and dare I say it, drive (a small proportion). Obviously would have to be somehow verified.
I suspect that only then would they gain any form of understanding of the variety of issues faced by everyone who is trying to get from A to B and share the roads (and rails).
NB, is the Keith Brown claim documented anywhere, about arriving by rail that day?
I'm fairly sure that even by the low standards of our politicians, bare-faced lying like that ought to be worthy of flagging up to a newspaper or similar.
Glasgow's cycling tzar was at the school on the same day as Mr Harvie. He was entertaining too but I didn't see how he arrived. Humsah Yousaf and Margaret Curran were also speaking. I think I've seen her in a BMW or she has an evil twin who drives around in one.
I'm surprised to find that I might be out performing the leader of the Greens on transport CO2 output.
I was on a plane in '86, Uni trip to Tenerife, and last outwith the UK in '96 (boat to the Hook of Holland because a cousin was at a uni in Leiden).
The four weans probably counts against me. Kids in school tell me that I'm being nasty to my kids because the youngest three have never been on a plane nor further away than Wales or the south of England. From what I have heard plane travel is not fun.
Off to watch Kojak. Yesterday there was an episode with Liberace in it. How good is that?
This is the weirdest, ever.
@Snowy, it was documented here, I don't know about the press. Probably on video somewhere...
[i]Kaputnik: "He didn't answer the "and how did you get here" heckle. He did turn up I suppose. Better than nothing? Or just taking the photo op?"
Cyclingmollie: I saw him answer that heckle - he said he'd come by train."
I remember hearing that too, as I stood in the cold with my then 3 year old daughter.
It's interesting to see that Keith Brown's response to heckling was just to lie. I suppose it would have been embarrassing for him to admit he arrived by ministerial limo. Now we know that he did, but lied to save face in front of a less than welcoming crowd.
No wonder he hasn't turned up for PoP!
Insto - not really that weird. It's a classic bait and switch. Rather than talking about the Scottish Government's failures on cycling, we are now talking about Patrick Harvie's very infrequent use of taxis.
WFB - not a criticism of you. I know you are a keen SNP supporter and Keith Brown wasn't coming out of this too well - so worth a shot.
Now that we are back on track...
It's the Kezia, Keith and Easter Road show.
I never thought any of them were interested in cycling.
I have considered voting Green, on the list vote, and was impressed by Mr Harvie when he visited the school. As a result of this thread I went looking for what he, and the rest of the Greens, have done about cycling. I'm less interested in voting for them now. I'm feeling greener than the Green Party now.
Have a look at Mr Havrie's list of interests. Camra is on there the CTC isn't. Looks like it's beer, not bikes, for the Scottidh Greens. Ms Lucas might be better but we can't vote for her.
I liked the previous transport minister better but the BBC elected him minister for snow and he didn't deal with it well.
I can't think of any Scottish or uk government that has done anything for cycling and having seen their attempts over the years, I'd probably be happier if Glasgow didn't bother.
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